Watching the Watchers with Robert Gruler Esq.

LAPD at Burlington Coat Factory OIS Body Camera Review

December 28, 2021 Robert Gruler Esq.
Watching the Watchers with Robert Gruler Esq.
LAPD at Burlington Coat Factory OIS Body Camera Review
Show Notes Transcript

Los Angeles Police Department releases new details about an OIS that took place on December 23rd, 2021 at a Burlington Coat Factory in California. 

🔹 LAPD issues press release, detailing the incident that involved Daniel Elena Lopz and Valentina Orellana-Peralta. 
🔹 Review of the 911 call from store employees to 911, revealing that Daniel Lopez was attacking customers with a bike lock.
🔹 LAPD officers respond, with an officer named Jones grabbing a rifle and taking the lead.
🔹 Video breakdown of the body camera footage released by the LAPD.
🔹 Review of the body camera shows several times other officers urged Jones to slow down.
🔹 Your comments and questions!

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#WatchingtheWatchers #LAPD #OIS #DanielElenaLopez #ValentinaOrellana-Peralta

Speaker 1:

Hello, my friends. And welcome back to yet. Another episode of watching the Watchers alive. My name is Robert grr . I am a criminal defense attorney here at the R and R law group in the always beautiful and sunny Scottsdale Arizona. And today we're talking about an officer involved shooting that took place out of Los Angeles at a Burlington coat. The LAPD responded. We've got a lot to talk about. They issued a press release along with a over 30 minute body camera video that we're gonna spend some time breaking down. We have a number of LAPD officers who just sort of swarm into this Burlington code factory because allegedly there's this guy by the name of Daniel, Elena Lopez, who was taking this bike lock and swinging it all over the place and beating people over the head with it. And he was, I mean, this was a pretty serious attack that was happening. And so LAPD came and responded and we have an outcome that we have to talk about. And so we're gonna go through this one a little bit differently rather than breaking this down and giving us background and back story , because this is such a new story. You may not have heard of it. We're gonna go into this thing cold. So I'm not gonna talk too much about it. We're just gonna pick it up with the 9 1 1 calls, and we're gonna respond to this thing just like you would, if you were a law enforcement officer. And so if you wanna be a part of the show, part of the pro the place to do that, the place to be is over@watchingthewatchersdotlocals.com. We have a form that looks just like this. If you wanna participate, then you can do so use that form. We'll be sure to get to your questions. Of course, today is Tuesday. So it's a little bit of a shorter show. Also, if you're looking for clips of anything that we do here, there over at a different Robert ruler , EQ clips , thank you for your support and for subscribing over there. And so now we can get into the meat and potatoes of the show, Los Angeles police department. They have a website where they release incident details that involve the LAPD and other people around the city. And you can see, it looks like this. They actually have a legend for the OIS shootings and all of the critical incidents. And you can see that we've had a couple of them pop up since Christmas day in particular, we're gonna be focusing on this one. This is 1223. It's an officer involved shooting with hits, and somebody has passed away as a result of it. Now you'll notice that many of these do not have videos. It says NBAs, no video available, but this one we've got a video. Actually, this one, we have a pretty long video. If you go over to the Los Angeles police department, YouTube channel, and they actually have a channel, which I think is outstanding. And I honestly, you know, I, I can be pretty hard on the police and we'll see how this video goes, but I am very appreciative of the fact that they're making an effort. You know, some people call this stuff, propaganda, you know, sort of propaganda that is being put out by police. And I think, yeah, I mean, there , there , there's a fair criticism here. You know , I watched this video and sure, yeah, he's framing this in a way that is very, very beneficial to the LAPD and to his officer. And so, yes, you're , it's always important to take note of that, but I do think, and I'm appreciative of the fact that they are trending this direction, that this, this OIS happened on 1223 and it is now 1227. And they've posted, they give us 35 minutes too. You know, this is a lot more than we usually get. I mean, there are still police departments that I , I think until very recently didn't have body camera. So they have all of this. They've assembled it. They are doing this, not because of, you know, they want to be as open and transparent, but they're also getting ahead of the story, right? This is sort of , you know, release it first because we know what happens. If, if it leaks later, public is a lot more angry. So let's just put it out there first. Let's make sure that we can craft the story around it and they do that. So let's pick it up. We're gonna dive into this thing, just like an officer would, you're sitting there you're or 9 1, 1 operator, you pick up the phone and you get a call like this, and you have to figure out what to do about it. Content warning. Obviously, we're talking about an OIS , an officer involved shooting. So there may be some profanity in this entire show. And obviously we're gonna watch an OIS so forewarned, but I did try to sanitize most of this. Now this is the nine one one call let's start here.

Speaker 2:

Officers assigned a north Hollywood division, responded to a radio call of an assault with a deadly weapon in progress at a business in the 12,100 block of victory Boulevard. While en route to the location, the officers received multiple radio calls from the same location that there was a possible shooting in progress. And there were in individuals , sheltering in place possible . Civil 9 1, 1 calls and radio broadcast from this incident. Matthew ,

Speaker 3:

Let's go , everybody out with transfer , evacuate the building , everybody E customer in my store , backing customer 1, 2, 1, 2, 1 what ? Okay . Ma'am what is it? A male or female? Ma'am he's breaking things . He's breaking customers . Ma'am ma'am hello ? I need you to listen to me so I can send some help. Is it a male or female? Male was of your Burlington. Where in the store is he? He customers black . White ma'am ma'am. I need you to answer my questions so we can sit the police . Okay . He's inside on the floor on the second floor. Okay . Is he black? Is he black, white, Hispanic, or Asian? He's Hispanic. What color clothing is he wearing? He's wearing a white, white cap . Shoot , hold the door over the door . Uh , colorful jacket . He's walking around the store , looking for people. Okay . Is it does have , okay . Ma'am hi . Ma'am I need you to only answer the question so that way we can keep an officer out there. What color pants is he wearing? A jeans. Okay . Does he have any weapons? Huh? Does he have any weapons get out ? He's using his bike . He's using one of those bike lock to hit people. I get out .

Speaker 1:

Okay. So you heard what she said? Uh , any weapons? No. He's using a bike lock, right. To hit people over the head. And so that was just the first part of this and she's pretty observant, right? She says, oh , it's a Hispanic male wearing a white cap. And she gives us a lot of details about what's happening now. She's of course scattered all over the place. And the 9 1, 1 caller is trying to just keep her attention on the phone. Hey, come back here. We're we can help. I , I can help, but I need some data from you and she's having a difficult time getting that, but we have another part, two of that same call. And here's what that sounds like

Speaker 3:

He's receiving . Okay. Ma'am he's using a bike block to hit people. Yeah . Yes . No knives or guns, correct? No knives. Okay . I need , I just need to make sure ma'am. I have to ask. Okay. Is he under the influence of any alcohol and narcotics as far as you know? Yeah . Most likely. Yes. What's your,

Speaker 1:

Okay . So we, we don't get much from her a after that now to be fair to LAPD, there's a whole slew of additional calls that come out of this. That was just one call. And that one goes on a little bit further, but I think in this entire 30 minute video, they added in about seven full minute of 9 1, 1 calls. And some of the other calls are a little bit more questionable questions about a gun. I think he might have a weapon. I don't know. Yes or no. This woman of course was very , uh , op you know , very clear, no guns, no knives, no weapons. He has a bike lock on drugs or alcohol. Yeah. Yeah, probably. I mean, look at this guy, he's going nuts. He's, he's banging around all over our store. So again, we haven't seen anything on the other side of this. This is just what's coming in the nine one, one call picks up, but this is what's going on actually inside the store. And we're gonna pick this up. You're gonna see the gentleman , Daniel Lopez who's down on the bottom floor of the Burlington code factor . This is a two, two story building. And so he's down on the bottom portion of the, the store before he goes up into where all of this takes place. And so there's, there's a , a big portion of this LAPD release that you see him, you know , rumaging around the store for several minutes. And so what ends up happening? He comes in, he's banging around all over the place. They call 9 1, 1, Daniel goes back downstairs and actually leaves the store and then comes back in right about the same time the police come. So for the sake of time and, and expediency, we're gonna skip all of that. It's about 10 minutes. We're now picking this up after Daniel has already been rumaging around he's down on the bottom floor. He sees the police pulling up outside the glass doors, and then he decides uhoh they're here for me. So he decides to Hightail it back up the stairs, and then it picks up from here. So let's watch this. Now, this is gonna be a , a couple minutes of the store surveillance footage. Then we're gonna get to the body camera with the officer. So he's already outta the store for about one and a half minutes. And he comes back in through the store , uh , through the door. So this is Daniel. Now you see him at the bottom left and he's running up the escalator because he can see the police are now. He just saw them. And that kind of spooked him a little bit. So now he's hightailing it. You can see the police are now coming in from the doors and they're kind of just mowing there, there , you know, no , no real sense of urgency. And you can see them coming around. You see a couple officers, four of them, and you can sort of make out if you , if you take , if you look closely, you can kinda make out their skin color. If you want to get clear on this looks like four Caucasian officers walking up the escalator, and they're just gonna continue their way forward. Nobody's in real urgency. Then you see this guy coming in, kind of chasing up behind them. You see him running up. Now he's gonna get up on the escalator. He draws his weapon, another white Caucasian officer here. We see another guy coming in. Another officer looks like a white guy, kind of , uh , bald there. And then right behind him, we see this African American officer. Now he's got a rifle and he's running up the stairs. Okay. Now, so he's, he's going up the right side there. And he's gonna, we're gonna hear from him in a minute, turns out that is the guy who pulls the trigger. So then we get some, some surveillance footage up here. You can see that is Daniel walking along. That was on the top left. And this is where now I'm not gonna play this whole thing. You see this woman right there. Now he just starts attacking her right here in the middle. And he's, he's , he's smacking her in the head with a bike lock. I mean, she was just shopping. I mean, she literally just had a be cart . And so this is all, you know, obviously very, you know , uh , very problematic. Okay. If the officer is here and shoots him, there's not even an argument. Now she's running away and he's just going crazy. He's , he's grabbing her and he's just gonna throw her down on the, on the pavement. Right. And he's just going nuts now. I stopped it here, but it , it actually gets dramatically worse. Okay. So let's, let's be very clear about this. I don't want to gloss over this. I just am not gonna play it on YouTube because she's bloody and all over the place and we are gonna play the shooting. But I do actually have that , uh , blurred out with a GA and blur. So what ends up happening is Daniel Lopez. You know, this poor woman is just shopping and it's two days or Christmas. I think this is the 23rd now. And so, you know, he's swinging this thing around, like, you know, just, you know , an absolute monster. And they, they sort of, you know, kind of go around this location a few times or, or once or twice doesn't really matter. But he ends up, you know, kicking her in the face. And I mean, he is really wailing on her wailing on her big time. So , uh, that happens. And then she sort of down here on the ground. Now, the, the, the conversation here , uh, continues. So let's see what happens now. This is all taking place in the store. And so then we get the different officer who , uh , now , now we're gonna switch to the body cameras. And , uh , miss , uh , somebody over on locals is asking, why is it , why is it important, Rob, if these officers are white or black, it's not other than the fact that we're going to be sort of , uh, identifying them, right? We don't know their names because telling us who these different officers are, they , they typically are not gonna reveal the officers who are involved in these things. And so I'm just trying to identify people. That's all, it's hard to, you know, I'll call, 'em a bald guy, but right now this is all that we've got, same type of vernacular that the police use, right? Uh , you know, Hispanic, male, Caucasian, African American guy, we're gonna use the same language just so we can keep track of who's doing what . And so there's, as you're gonna see, there's gonna be a distinction here because , uh , one officer who is African American happens to be the person , uh , who is the subject of this OIS . And so you can see here, this is now the body camera footage of this officer. Now I believe this is officer Jones. I think we're gonna hear his name, come out. This is now , uh , you can see this is 1223. We're gonna be paying close attention to this body camera footage and the time. And so it's gonna pick up with him. And so remember that we, we watched in , in the prior segment, we watched a , a , a full group of officers go up the escalator before him. And we saw another officer one or two of them actually come up behind. Now, this is because they're , they're already in the building. Now he's just getting up. He's pulling in here. And then this is where this picks up. And so let's, let's , we're

Speaker 4:

Gonna play , have one unit come in from the , uh , on the second floor .

Speaker 1:

Okay . So a unit's on the second floor. They're getting some data, some Intel, you can actually hear that. And so he's, he's running through

Speaker 4:

Here

Speaker 1:

And he's going to grab the

Speaker 4:

Rifle. People are giving him

Speaker 1:

Details, wearing

Speaker 4:

Shorts . Okay ?

Speaker 1:

Okay . So now he's gonna make his way inside. And as we saw that he's gonna race around

Speaker 4:

Your distance , down them down . Hey, slow down, slow down. Let me take point with the rifle. Hey , back up , get out . He's got two . You got okay . He's the bleeding bleeding , hold . Hold on ,

Speaker 1:

Hold on . All right . Now this is the moment of the shooting. You can see exactly what's happening. We've already seen this, a couple different directions. We see the officer is now approaching. We're gonna break that down again. We're gonna watch this , uh , you know, again, but you can see we've got a lot of distance here. Now, this officer, you know, we don't know exactly what he observed or what he heard, but we can see, I don't know, 20, 30 feet away. We have the woman who's on the ground. There is now blood near her. We see Daniel Lopez over here, and we saw the entire cascade of officers running down the hallway. You can see there's blood on the ground. This woman has had her head beaten in this officer now decides to shoot. Watch. I have this blurred out here. It happens quickly. I gotta , All right , now at that moment, that's where the shot happens. There's a big distance between everybody. Let's see if we can break down what this officer saw here is a screen grab . If you freeze frame the screen, you can see 11 49, 38. And you can see here. If this officer is trying to identify a weapon, something that would be a deadly weapon. And remember folks we're talking about the use of lethal force to stop him from committing lethal force or using lethal force at this moment. He's 20 feet away from that woman. And so the officer needs to identify and assess a threat. Does he have a gun? Is he an ongoing threat? Could he shoot somebody else? Does he have a weapon? So at this frame at 11 49 38, it looks like a bike lock. Doesn't look like a gun at all. Does it doesn't look like a knife? Looks like something that doesn't even look like a weapon. In fact, it looks like a bike lock . Now doesn't mean that you can't throw that at somebody or that you can't, you know, use that as a dangerous weapon. No question about that. But at that moment, right, hint right then and there at 11 49 38 , was he an active threat, hard to say for this officer , if you're looking at now, this is a little bit of a different scene. Isn't it? And notice that this is also 11 49, 38. So we have two different sort of body cams. One's a little bit zoomed in 11 49, 38, 11 49, 38. His hand has just twisted a little bit. Okay . Here in this frame, it doesn't look like a bike lock at all. Okay . This looks like something can't really tell what that is. Might be the top profile of a handgun, maybe as if the handgun, you know, was sort of down or it could be the, the barrel of a rifle, you know, a black Selin , cold looking thing. Officer may say, I don't know what that is. I have no idea what that is. And so you can see how quickly this happens, right? This officer is having to make a split decision. And just the simple rotation of the wrist is gonna change the bike lock, looking like a bike lock into the bike lock , looking like I'm not real sure what it is now. Shooting takes place. We see here, this is the, the sort of another freeze frame from 1149. So I was able to grab three screen , uh , screen grabs of this, and now he's walking away. Okay . So now it looks like this left hand is now back up. And so what is the officer thinking is the officer thinking that he is now firing, you know, raising his arm to fire, cuz the gun has not gone off at this moment until we get shots fired, shots fired, then he's down on the ground. And so let's play this just one more time. Actually. We're gonna pick this up right here. Let's watch this. He's gonna actually a approach and we're gonna blur out the left side of the screen. Here he is.

Speaker 4:

Stop my , my ,

Speaker 1:

Okay . And watch this, let's play this one one more time. Watch how he's sort of playing around with his gun. Watch . Let me play that again. Cuz my, my big fat head's in the way here it is

Speaker 4:

Your hands . Grab my, my get . Alright . Alright .

Speaker 1:

All right . And so , uh , they give us a following zoomed in video, they zoom in now the LAPD does this, you know, super slow motion. They zoom in on the bike lock and they go, you know , almost like a law and order final Don Don you're like , oh gosh, that's the bike lock. That was , uh , so menacing. But anyways, so that happens. And now , uh , that the shooting all took place. And so, you know, it there's a lot. There there's a lot, you can unpack, you can easily be, be sitting there saying, man, you know, that woman had her head beaten in and an officer could easily approach that scene. And he could, he could say something happened here that was very drastic, very dramatic. Don't really know what the weapon is, but this woman has her head cracked open and there's blood all over the place. And I see a cylindrical object, I see a weapon. And so I'm gonna exercise my discretion to the best of my training, the best of my ability . And I'm gonna decide to execute that person to fire, to save a life because I don't know the justification of courses . I don't know what he has in his hand. We saw those two different angles of that. It could have been a gun, it could have been a bike lock . It could have been at something else who knows. And so he made a split second decision. He waited till the last minute. He didn't want to do that, but he absolutely had to do it in order to prevent further harm. Right. Cuz he can't come out and execute a sentence for what he did to that woman. Yeah. He's gonna get arrested and prosecuted for that. Yeah , of course he assaulted that woman. You could say maybe he even attempted murder on that woman, but he should be arrested. And of course brought in front of a judge and brought in front of a tribunal and given due process, he might be mentally insane. You know, we don't know what's going on with the guy. And so yeah, after the threat had dissipated, the next step is of course you just go and conduct the arrest because then you can go through the formal criminal process that we have in America that we upheld the presumption of innocent and all of those things. And it can go through the formal system and if he is convicted, which of course he would be in that case, unless he's insane or something, then a judge can convict him. A judge can pass the sentence, but if you just execute somebody, if you just shoot them before that due process happens, well , they you're kind of the judge, the juror and the executioner, right? The , the , all of those things wrapped up in the one. And so we don't want that to happen, but we allow it. If it is a very specific circumstance, if it's to protect another life, if it's gonna save an officer from dying, if it's gonna save a third party from dying another person, then we say, go ahead, use that lethal force because it's justified. And so we have to ask ourselves about that. And so, you know , if we go through that analytical framework, the other side of that of course is well Rob. Yeah, maybe, but she was very distant. She was very far apart. You know , he was, he was 20 feet, 30 feet away. He was on the other side of the aisle and you know how many shoes they can fit in those aisles a lot. So they're big. And since there was nobody else around that we could see. And since we couldn't verify whether he had a weapon and since the 9 1, 1 caller said that it wasn't a gun or a knife, it in fact was a bike lock and he probably was on narcotics or drugs or in Saint . Was there a disconnect there? Maybe the officer shouldn't have been so eager to jump into this. Well, let's see what happened . So we know now that we've got an officer who had to make a terrible decision and then we also have a dead guy, Daniel Lopez, let's, there's more to the story, the LAPD, they explain it for us here. They tell us really what's happening.

Speaker 2:

As officers arrived at the location, they were directed upstairs to the suspect and began a search during that search officers located a female who was suffering from various injuries and bleeding. They encountered the suspect, a short distance away. And an officer involved shooting occurred. The suspect was struck by gunfire and taken into custody. The Los Angeles fire department paramedics responded and determined the suspect deceased at scene, unbeknownst to the officers a 14 year old girl was in the changing room behind a wall that was behind the suspect. And out of the officer's view, she was in the changing area with her mother. When the officers encountered the suspect in officer involved shooting occurred during a search for additional suspects and victims officers found the girl and discovered she had been struck by gunfire and she was determined, deceased at scene. Uh , at this preliminary phase of the investigation, it is believed that the victim was struck by one of the rounds fired by an officer at the suspect.

Speaker 1:

Uh , oh , uh , oh , it wasn't just about Daniel Lopez. It wasn't just about that guy. There was a 14 year old girl in the dressing room who got shot and killed by the police officer. And her name is Valentina or AANA Peralta. She was with her. They're trying on clothes in the Burlington dressing room on Thursday when she was shot and killed by an officer whose name has yet to be released by the LAPD. Pretty sure it's officer Jones, as we're gonna uncover. Police said Monday that the bullet bounced off the floor and went through the wall of the dressing room. We'll see the family of Ariana Peralta who arrived in the us from Chile just six months ago, hired a civil rights attorney, Ben Crump , Ugh , who represented families of Martin. Floyd Taylor Crump is a grifter of, you know, absolute massive epic proportions, Crump and Ariana Peralta's parents. They expected all the press conference on Tuesday, just days before Christmas Valentina, Ariana Peralta was trying on a Kesan air address with her mom. When police started shooting at a suspect outside of the dressing rooms, a stray bullet from an officer's assault rifle struck and killed Valentina. Trump says her death was preventable. So we see that now , uh, that a 14 year old in addition was killed. So kind of complicates things a little bit. Doesn't it. We know a little bit more about the actual person who was involved here. Los Angeles times reported that Daniel, Elena Lopez has convictions for car theft, carrying a loaded gun in public, also carrying a gun as a felon. So he's a repeat offender and looks like he might have a little , uh , there on the bottom, right? Eye newspaper also reported that he was arrested in the sand Fernando valley in August, 2020, charged back then with domestic battery, stealing a car recklessly, fleeing the police later, pleading guilty to domestic battery and fleeing the police in sentenced to two years in state prison. <laugh> oh, spokeswoman for the state, a corrections department declined to release his commitment history to the times citing the ongoing investigation in north Hollywood. Why , you know, wouldn't it be interesting if one of those , uh , California prosecutors, one of those, you know, Cala Harris types created all of these very lax criminal law that let people like this out. Hmm . Curious this chaotic incident resulting in the death of an innocent child is tragic and devastating said LAPD, chief Michael Moore, who was outta town with family, but he was briefed on the shooting. So California continues to just be California, I guess here is a quick screenshot of what it looks like. So they went back after the fact, of course they are taking evidence all over the place and here you can see that they have a laser and they're sort of matching it right up with that bullet hole. So the dressing room wall looks like it's right here and they just take a laser. And they're saying he shot a few times and it bounced off of the ground, bounced up towards the wall, went through the dressing room. And so that begs a couple questions, but yeah . First of all, do you believe? I don't know . We'll see. Because then the bullet would be going down. It would pin here and go up. He , why is he shooting somebody who's already on the ground, right ? The body would be here. Why is he shooting at the body or is he shooting directly towards the wall when he was standing and he just missed and hit a dressing room wall. So we see that now there is a poll that is out on the poll form, which I don't think I pinned. So let me go ahead and do that real quickly. See what you think about this thus far. We are not done yet. We have another angle to view this whole thing, but let's get the poll form out there so you can weigh in. Do you think this is justified or not justified, justified or not? Justified is the general question that we're asking the poll form has now been dropped in the chat. We're gonna pin that up top. And so let's take a look. See if we have any responses. Yeah , we have 2 50 50. So we just put that in there. Four responses are now coming in justified 75% 11 responses. You can see this is filling up. Oh, we got kind of a 50 50 split on this one. Ooh , we've got just now you gotta keep in mind. Right? This is justified for the entire shooting. The entire thing he shoots 14 year old girls included. That means the shot was justified. He was entitled to shoot 14 year old girl. Sorry. Look at these. Look at this. This is an interesting case. We've got almost a 50, 50 SP lit 44 to 55. Make sure you get your votes in. And we're just, we're gonna wait here a minute because I wanna see if anything changes after the , uh, after the next segment. I don't think that it will, but we're pretty evenly split 45, 55 justified is winning the case 55% say just , all right , so now let's get back into this. So we see that this is the angle we saw the one angle and I believe that's from officer Jones and officer Jones was of course accompanied by a number of other officers who were sort of in that group of people who were going down the hallway of the Burlington coat factory. And so now what we're gonna get is four body cameras that are not Jones all synced up and we're gonna get to watch the whole thing again. And so we're gonna watch this, like probably just one time for the sake of time. And then we're gonna break this down a little bit and we're gonna take a look at Jones's behavior specifically and see, you know, if he was a little bit over eager in this whole case or not, you , you be the people who decide the poll form is linked up there for your vote. All right ? So these are the four parts all synced up and pay attention to , um, to some language that's being used in here. There are other officers that are around saying things like, yo, slow down, slow it up. Jones, hold up, slow, slow. See if you pay attention, see if you can hear any of that as this is unfolding watch. All right . So these are all synchronized based on the standardized time on each camera.

Speaker 4:

Anyone else in there ? We have associates in there . I'll back . Stand back. Let's start moving up . All right . Move , push . Roger . Moving up . Standby .

Speaker 1:

All right . So this looks like it's that first group of officers

Speaker 4:

We're gonna be moving up right now . Right ? Whenever you're ready. And then , uh , give that warning. Gotcha . Right ? Hey , keep going in . We got people . Yeah . Upstairs . Upstairs . Watch you serious . Okay , please . Hey kind . Probation guys got information, right ? I'll on the right probation . All right . Pushing. Hello ?

Speaker 1:

All right . Now Jones and his crew just pulled up in the bottom, right? So he's getting the assault rifle out of the gun, out the back of the trunk right now. Lap coming

Speaker 4:

Up . You

Speaker 1:

Jones' partner is in the bottom, right?

Speaker 4:

Hey , careful that yeah . Let Jordan hit him with that . Hey , watch . Watch my , I , I get you back . I got you back

Speaker 1:

Now. He's got, you can see that he's got in the bottom left. You see, he's got something that looks like a bean bag , right? That looks like less than lethal. So we've got less than lethal in the bottom left.

Speaker 4:

Hey diamond .

Speaker 1:

Now watch , watch Jones come up the escalator,

Speaker 4:

Come out . I'm gonna push show up so I can see right here. We got a guy right here. Jones . No pants. We have a victim down victim

Speaker 1:

Just came up the elevator, slow down , slow down, slow down, slow down. Jones is taking the front. He's

Speaker 4:

He's got a tube he's hitting behind to the right where the fitting room fitting room . Slow down

Speaker 1:

There goes Jones ,

Speaker 4:

Slow , slow down , slow down , slow hold , hold on , hold , hold on .

Speaker 1:

All right , shots fired. Now you can see, we had a couple different things that are happening right now. You can see the guy in the bottom left this . He had , he had the tube, right? He had the less than lethal. He had the bean bag . He was gonna be able to go and use less than lethal. You just saw that Joan just sort of muscled his way up all the way to the front and you know, just was very aggressive. And he got to the front. You can see him down here, right? And he's there. And then he opens fire. Now we can break this down. You know, a little bit here's Jones here. He's got the gun. He maneuvered past several different times. Now if we, if we, if we, you know, back up even a little bit further, Jones was saying this, Hey, slow down, slow down. Let me take point with the rifle. Slow down. Let me get in there. Let me take point with the rifle. Then as he's moving forward, we hear slow down, slow down, slow down. Other officers are saying that slow down, slow down, slow down three instructions there. We have another one. Slow it down. They say, slow it down. Then we get another one. Hold up, Jones, hold up, hold up, hold up. But Jones doesn't do that. And you can see right here, right? Is the , that , that moment where Jones is now going to shoot. And this woman from what I can see is no longer in danger from this individual. And we get a split. Second, she shot and we have a dead Daniel Lopez and we have a dead Valentina, 14 year old girl who had nothing to do with any of this stuff. So the use of force policy of course, is available at the LAPD website. Here is the actual press release that they gave us, says north Hollywood officer involved in a shooting incident. They're gonna tell us a little bit more about what happens next. They say on December 23rd, around 1145 north Hollywood officer has responded to a radio call for an assault with a deadly weapon. While in route, they received multiple calls from the same location. There was a possible shooting, located a female suffering, various injuries encountered the, the suspect short distance away suspect was struck by gunfire and taken into custody. Fire department. Paramedics responded, determined the suspect deceased at the scene. One victim transported to the hospital, unbeknownst to the officers. A 14 year old girl was in the changing room directly behind the suspect. And out of the officer's view, she was in the changing area. Her mother officers encountered the suspect during the search officers found the girl discovered she'd been struck by gunfire pronounced dead at the scene at this preliminary phase, it's believed that she was struck by one of the rounds. Officer Michael Moore police chief says this chaotic incident resulting in the death of an innocent child is tragic, devastating to everyone involved. I'm profoundly sorry for the law of this young girl's life. I know there are no words that can relieve that unimaginable pain for the family. My commitment to conduct a thorough, complete transparent investigation into the circumstances that led up to this tragedy and provide the family and the public with as much information as possible. I have directed the release of critical incident, video clues, 9 1, 1 calls, body worn video, other CCTV footage. Other information gathered during the stage says pursuant to assembly. Bill, the California attorney General's office is going to investigate and independently review this officer involved shooting, California department of justice team says that alongside other partners, they are going to be investigating the incident. Once it's completed, it's gonna be turned over to the CA California department of justice, special prosecution section within the criminal law division for an independent review, Los Angeles police department, family liaison , working closely with the mayor's crisis response team and the council member, Monica Rodriguez is gonna provide assistance to the 14 year old girls family. So we're gonna see just a whole slew of investigations that will continue on in this case. And we'll see where it goes. Let's see what you have to say about this one. This is an interesting, so I wanted to make sure we left a little bit of time for comments and we can always go back to the video and any of the slides, if that sounds appropriate, but let's see if we have any thoughts here over from watching the watchers.locals.com and now, wow. So we have a big change on the poll form . Also poll form says not justified now. So I wonder if the 14 year old girl changes the equation on that sounds like it might maybe that cause some people to rethink this whole thing. And so we'll leave that poll going. It was before that 14 year old girl segment, I think it was a little bit different, but now not justified. Very in . Interesting. All right , so let's take a look at some questions. Get your thoughts over@watchingthewatchersdotlocals.com. Let's see what we've got here. Couple questions on this topic. Sergeant Bob says bike lock is a dangerous weapon, swing it on a chain and it can kill that is from Sergeant Bob. That's true Sergeant, but I, I wonder was it a dangerous weapon at the time of the shoot? It was earlier, but at the time of the shoot, was it still a dangerous weapon at that time? Or was it just a bike lock? Miss Danny says, I'm just thinking while watching the video. Good to see you. Miss Danny says, is there any way to stop someone without shooting him down? I mean, I don't, don't Daniel Lopez, but on the other hand, more than six officers couldn't stop one person. Sorry. It might be that I don't live there. Rob poor little girl. So unfair, happy holidays, Robert. I wish you all the best for the new year. That's miss Danny . And I think miss Danny you're from Uruguay , is that right? Where are you from? I forget where you're from. I apologize. I should remember that, but, but you're , uh, wherever you're from. And I apologize for, for missing that it works the same way. Six guys should be able to take down one guy ordinarily speaking. Now, unless that one guy, you know, has an assault weapon or a rifle or a firearm or a machete, even if he's swinging it right. Or if he's like Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan , maybe, but ordinarily no six police officers should be able to take down one guy with a bike lock. Who's probably on narcotics in high didn't look that fit didn't look like he was Jason born . So it is the same, no matter I think where you're at yet six trained adult male should be able to take down , uh , 1 24 year old Daniel Lopez. Sergeant Bob says, initial officers go in purposefully. They assess and try to figure out what they really have. Officer brings the rifle since it might be needed, especially if a hostage and a distant shot is needed. A lot, depends on the info from the officers that they had from the callers . True enough, a bike lock was visible, but that does not preclude the bad guy from possessing a handgun and drawing it. Bad guy already tried to kill a lady. Yes, Robert, these events happen real quickly to delay than a split. Second could be fatal for the victim or the officers officer was not playing with a rifle, but quickly checking components again so far, I think it's justified that distance was not far. Anyone can cover that ground in a couple of seconds. The innocent victim, of course tragic had no way of knowing, addressing room was there. Yeah, they do. They do Sergeant Bob. And I'm glad that you're a part of this community and that you can articulate that so eloquently. I appreciate that. And you have a lot of experience in that. And so I'm grateful that we have you here to share that perspective. And so we'll let that sit for a minute. So we'll, let's take a look at some of these other comments that are coming in. We got Sergeant Bob also says, officer never would've shot. If he knew a girl was in the background, however other officers trying to slow Jones down is a factor. Interesting. Yeah. Very interesting. Let's see here. Uh , chill , Don hummed over on YouTube says change my mind on the ignoring the multiple down comments. He seemed too cavalier in his actions. Yeah. And that's kind of where I was going with this. Right. He seemed kind of over eager , like anxious, like gimme that rifle. I'm going move. Let me get point on this. Meanwhile, you've got another guy that's got a non lethal and you've got him running into the forefront and everybody's saying it , slow down, hold it back, slow down Jones Jones. And he turns the corner. That's the end of it. So, and we see two people here. Sergeant Bob is pointing that out. Other officers trying to slow him down. Yep . That's a factor and chill . Don Hamed says the same thing seemed a little bit cavalier. We have Boeing 7 57 says yes. Object in hand. But did officer notice a weapon that constituted an immediate threat? I didn't see that at all. Yeah . I didn't see it either. And you know, you also have the nine one one call that said that there was no guns. There was no weapons. And again, right. To be fair to the LAPD, I did not play the other calls because there's like seven other minutes of them, but there were other calls of other people. It it's it's pandemonium. You know, if we're gonna give this , uh , um, give them a , a look and the light most favorable to the LAPD, you are existing in a fog of war. You know, you , you , I would guess, right? I've never been a police officer or agent Sergeant Bob, Ken opine on this. But the idea being that is it, is it reasonable to expect all of those officers to have up to date data? In other words, should those officers have been up to speed on the fact that that 9 1, 1 caller only said a bike lock , no guns, no knives. And if so, can we , can we ever prove that that Jones got that instruction? Did he hear that? Did he know that if he had heard that, would that change your equation? If he heard it and disregarded it and shot, would that change the equation? Does it change the equation? Because maybe as Sergeant Bob said, he could have had something else. And because he had a pro , he , I , as obvious and evident, he is willing to seriously hurt or, or kill somebody by the blood all over the ground at the Burlington coat factory. But he didn't kill her. The only person who killed anybody, two of 'em was a law enforcement officer. And I know he didn't intend to, but that's what happens when you shoot first and ask questions later, monster one says for once Crump was right about something. If this guy would've been in prison, it wouldn't have happened and was thus preventable. That's a good point. Monster one. It's a great point. Okay . And you know, I am in a criminal defense attorney, but also I have to live in the same society as everybody else. And I much rather see a prosecute, a prosecutorial system, a justice system that is focused on prosecuting the bad criminals or, or creating a system of rehabilitation for people who are not criminals, but who are not competent to live in the same society as U N I , that is one way to approach it. But instead we get, you know, people busted from marijuana crimes cuz they're smoking in their car in high school. Okay. That's good . Good job. Well done. Good job, everybody. Meanwhile, people like this or the Waukesha guy, right? They just , it's a revolving door in those inner cities and everybody else it's, you know, more severe penalties. All right , Google is loading the next question any day. Now Google, you have the best servers in the world. All right . Zero says, Rob, the officers were probably telling Jones to slow down because they were worried he would be injured. No doubt. A prosecutor will try to spin that, that a reasonable officer in Jones's position. And would've known to have slown down and fall into formation, therefore breaching his duty to the public thoughts. One more time. No doubt. A prosecutor will try to spin that to say that a reasonable officer in Jones's position, would've known to have slown down and fallen into formation. Therefore yes. So that's exactly the argument sea . Exactly. The argument is that he, he was doing something outside of the ordinary on basically three separate occasions. We had slow down, slow it up. And then we had hold up . There were three different, you know, and they were within, you know, 10 seconds of each other, but it was, I'd be very curious to see what officers were saying that, why was it reiterated multiple times if you watch that, if there's actually a lot more to the , to this entire video, but I just clipped a lot of it for the sake of time. But if you, if you watch it right , many of the other officers are startled as soon as those guns go and what the shooting, because it didn't seem like that big of a deal. Now, of course, you're gonna have that. Anytime somebody shoots, everybody's gonna react a little bit, but it reminds me of that other video we did about the Tucson shooting, an officer Remington who murdered that guy in the wheelchair still haven't seen any charges. I checked on that case, but it's, you know, if other officers are watching a shoot happen and they're also startled and they're saying they they're looking at the circumstances and they're not saying, you know, they're also not shooting or, or whatever. Then maybe that shows that there's a , a discrepancy. There's a , a disparity between what people were observing. And if every other officer was saying slow it down and Jones is running through, he's doing a Leroy Jenkins out there into the Burlington code factory. That's, you know, that's not what a reasonable officer would do. Stay in formation, make sure that you're safe, protect life. Don't go out there. You know, if you're not a vigilante running around, be curious, you know what? This officer's background is, how long he's been with the force, whether he is got any other similar incidents at stuff , Kinkaid is here, says Rob hope things are well. The video, plus the dispatch Intel all suggests the officer should be better trained and practice for communication and assessment. The officer closest to the women on the ground, considering the coverage could have asked a couple of questions in positions for the team. Lastly, using , uh , an assault rifle in that environment is ill advised is primarily if the rounds are regulated for that environment, considering the psychological makeup of the new generation of officers further real world training should be paramount. That's from Kinkaid. Yeah. That is from Kinkaid . And that is a good comment, you know, and I think a big part of this should be to you, you know , really encourage lethal force as an absolute last, last , last thing. I , I didn't, I didn't feel like that was the case in this , in this situation now, listen, I know what the opposite. The conclusion here is the police in that side of the argument, they always come back and they say, Rob, it's offer life and it's split second safety and all of this stuff. And I say, yes, I understand that. And I'm appreciative that there are heroes, men and women like Sergeant Bob out there who are doing heroic things, being good officers. But my point on this thing is that is the point is that that split second is where the money is made you. That's why officers are considered heroes is cuz they wait till the last minute somebody, it look, it's easy to just turn a corner in a Burlington code factory and say, there's the bad guy and just start shooting. Okay . You can do that in a video game. I'm playing halo right now. That's largely how I operate. Just start shooting everywhere. Right? But that's not legitimate in a Burlington co factory outside of LA. So if that's the situation, let me , let me go on. All right . Thank you for that Kincaid. We have another question here. Ticus prime says I do agree that there was a potential for harm, but not enough to justify the action. It seems like Joan was a little over zealous and the LTL probably should have taken point. Yep . Not enough to justify the action. That's from ENT kiss reading some of the chat over simultaneously. Jeremy says, Rob, that was the most efficient case I've ever seen a verdict come so fast. You presented it very efficiently. You took the pretrial poll presented, then got a verdict. Great job on speeding up the legal process. That's from Jeremy Madrea <laugh> yes . I think Jeremy saying it was one way. Then we presented some evidence and then it went the other way. All right . It came to a conclusion. Got a verdict. Great job on speeding up the legal process. There you go. Guilt. By watching the Watchers, let's take a look at the poll <laugh> and it continues to go that way. Not justified, not justified is how this puppy is wrapping up. And that's interesting because we started the, it , it was a 55. Oh, that's good. All right . Still need more info from several other people. Uh, let's see. That's from Jeremy. We have one from thunder. Seven says cop acted with what he perceived as a justified shooting. You implied that there was no danger to anyone from Edman , but how does a cop know? He doesn't have a gun? That's true. He does . He doesn't know that, but you don't get to shoot everybody that you suspect of not having a gun or if you don't know. So it's like, it's the difference between an absence of evidence and evidence of an absence, right? That's a , that's a different distinction. You can say that , uh , you can say that you don't have, there's no evidence that you have cancer, but that doesn't mean you don't have cancer. Right? And so what we say is we , we sort of put that onus on the police. You don't get to just presume everybody has a gun and act accordingly. We <laugh> , that's a , that's a standard. That's very difficult. So we have to now demand more. They have to see something. They can't just presume it because otherwise they would just presume everything. Women bleeding on the floor could be seriously injured again. That's true. That's true. If they charge the cop, there will be no one left to protect the community or respond to emergency calls. Wokeness is destroying law and order tragedy . The 14 year old was killed, but Lopez is responsible for her death, not officer Jones. That's from thunder seven and we got a good split on this one. This is a good one. I , I had a feeling. This was gonna be a good one. Monster. One says, so she's been here less than six months. Most likely an illegal immigrant <laugh> monster. One says if, if so, yes, her death could have been prevented. Had she not broken our laws and entered the country illegally monster one? Oh my goodness. No mercy. I can't believe I read that. She's dead brother, but let's <laugh> uh , Kincaid says, Sarge, Bob makes a great point. Sarge, Bob makes a great point. 10 feet can be covered quickly enough to disarm in some cases quickly enough to disarm in some cases. Yeah. It's a 21 foot rule, which is one of the best YouTube videos I have ever seen of all time. I haven't seen that probably in 10 years. Let's see if we can. Is that, is that a copyrighted 21 foot rule ? <laugh> oh my gosh. Uh , this is my favorite. So, so this is what we're talking about here. This could be exactly what happened. This is what Sergeant Bob and I think monster one are talking about , uh, this guy he's gonna demonstrate the 21 foot rule with the knife. So if, for example, if Daniel Lopez had a knife and if officer Jones was this guy in the cardboard box, this could have happened. This could have been very deadly. He was trying

Speaker 5:

To make you gun guys aware about , uh, what the capabilities are of the knife. Cuz uh, you move too slow and you count too much on that. One, shot him down and you gotta move.

Speaker 1:

Watch this 21 feet.

Speaker 5:

Here we go.

Speaker 1:

Oh , Behind

Speaker 6:

The tree somewhere . And I see somebody coming down the trail and I go, huh ? That's mine .

Speaker 1:

Get it. Yes.

Speaker 5:

All right . This is a relatively small.

Speaker 1:

All right . So you get the point of that. That's the 21 knife . That's the 21 foot rule. And that guy's some serious business. He means serious business. So now you know why , uh, this thing can be so deadly and uh, serious business. Former EEO says the location and the distance from possible victims and additional victims makes it appear that the use of deadly force to stop the threat would not be justified. The location and the distance from possible victims and additional victims makes it appear that the use of deadly force to stop the threat would not be justified. That's from former Eleo in the house, says control the situation. Don't let the situation control you. But of course, hindsight is 2020. Yeah. And that's from former L EEO and it's a tough call. I think it's a tough call . Uh , I , I , I actually don't think it's a tough call, but I can understand why my police would say it's a tough call. And I think that <affirmative> , it is a tricky one because a lot of people are in agreement on this. Although the, the numbers are tightening up, we're now at 76.5% that say it is not justified. Yeah . So we're , we're getting, we're getting a , uh , coal coalescing around a decision. John Dolar says in reminds me of the Kim Potter case officer didn't mean to kill the little girl, but his over eagerness and the carelessness got the better of him . He's going to jail. Jurors are not gonna forgive that. Especially since the guy wasn't aggressive, when he was shot, very apparent to shooting was unnecessary. That's from John Dolar in the house. Yeah. Yeah . It's very interesting. I think I agree with that. You know, and I didn't think about that analogy, but that's a great analogy. Kim Potter, obviously she just got convicted of manslaughter. Didn't intend to shoot him to TA him was in the performance of her duty, did something that was negligent. So that's gonna be the question here in Kim Potter's case, the negligence was that she grabbed the taser. I'm sorry. Grabbed the gun, not the taser thought she was gonna shoot D day Wright with a taser, ended up shooting him with a handgun and she got charged and convicted with me . Manslaughter. Her sentencing is coming up next year. So if, if you analyze that according to the same structure and you say in this case, we also consider manslaughter charges for both manslaughter, for both manslaughter for just the girl or, oh , manslaughter, let's go to the polls. Shall we we'll do that. We're gonna do another one here. We're gonna add in a criminal charges. Let's say, we'll say criminal charges for , uh, Daniel. So , uh, charges for Daniel charges for Valentina charges for neither charges for both. Let's try that. And that should be, so we'll say charges for the killing of Daniel charges for the killing of Valentina is for neither or charges for both. And so that is now active on the poll form. And so if you redo the poll, you should be able to , uh , vote on that one. And so let's see what we've got coming in. You can see this one here charges for neither. So , uh, looking like that's taking up the case, so no criminal charges or the officers , uh , for officer Jones, right? Nothing that would be equating towards like a manslaughter. So think about this, like manslaughter analogous to Kim Potter . Do you think so, and so charges for both for killing both Lopez, unnecessary killing charges for killing Valentina, unnecessary killing. So manslaughter for both that's at 34% charges only for Valentina. So he was justified in shooting Lopez, but not Valentina the recklessness. So he , in , in other words, yeah, that's interesting. And then we have charges for Daniel, but not for Valentina. And so I think that if you got charges for Daniel, maybe that's kind of a bad, because that would then , uh, I , I think if you charge for Daniel, you probably would charge for Valentina, but I could under, I could see actually, you know, jurors could make that distinction. They could say he shouldn't have, you know , been able to shoot Daniel, but the other one was an accident. I could see how, you know, it doesn't make logical sense. Really. It looks like a peace sign. Isn't that nice. So we're evenly split charges for both about 40% and charges for neither about 40%. And then it's sort of splitting that in the middle. So it's taking this question and kind of splitting it up a little bit. And so back in on that one and see what everybody has to say about it. We also , uh , and it's a great question , John deun yeah. The Kim Potter analogy she got convicted. This is in LA, are they, are you gonna see a LA prosecutor bring charges against a police officer? And you also have to think about, I I know , I know, but you have to think about the races here. Okay . This is not a white officer with an African American victim, which matters. I hate to say it, but it does, you know, the media's not gonna take this case and pound it into the ground. It's also not an season , so it's not doesn't serve their ends. So I think we'll probably not hear as much of it, but it certainly is relevant. Miss Danny says, did you see the reaction of Jones when he saw the bleeding woman? Would that image have changed what he thought at the moment? Just wondering. So, no, I mean, we didn't really right. We did not. It's a great question. Miss Danny <affirmative> we don't actually see the face of Jones because Jones sort of takes the front. Now we see a little bit of his face in that one in that one , uh, slide that I had, let me scroll back over to this one. We see a little bit of his face as he sort of approaching, and I'm gonna scroll this up here. Where is that one? Yes, right here. So this is the, this is as they are approaching, right? This is officer Jones. He has the gun and he's sort of, you know, maneuvering himself to the front of the line. You can see this is him up here also. And so we can, that's all we see, right? They they're further down the hall, down this , uh , corridor down here. And so we can't of see what his face looks like when he comes upon the woman with her head smashed open, but I'm sure, you know, look , uh , you know, I'm , I'm sure it was a traumatic scene for anybody to see that as an officer, right? Put yourself in that perspective, right ? If I'm an officer and I'm there and I'm watching this happen and I'm hearing shouts and screams, and this woman's head on the ground with her head bloodied all over the place. And I don't know how that happened. And I see a guy with something in his hand and you really have to think about that one. But I , as I say this, you know, you , the reason you're heroic is because you wait, is because you take that potential risk of potentially dying. That's what's heroic. You know, it's, it's scoring a touchdown in the last five seconds of the game. That's why you are the hero of the game. That's why you're MVP because you were losing and you did something that was very risky and you won. And you're a hero for that restraint or for making that play. If you're up 35 points and you score a touchdown in the fourth quarter, nobody cares well done, but you make your money in that little tiny area, that little questionable zone. So in these situations, you , you know, anybody can just go and turn a corner in a Burlington and you start shooting the bad guys. You've got to wait. That's why you have all the training. That's why you have all of these credentials. That's why people look to officers as heroes. Cause they wait when a regular civilian wouldn't that's from Ms . Danny . Good question. A couple others here. We have one from Kincaid said better adherence to our communication and chain of command. Dispatch is not a short order . Cook bringing cops to their meals to devourer. Yeah. And so that was another question. And another thought I had, you know, how do you synchronize data to a number of officers who are in the middle of the fog of warp? Do they all get, you know , a ping it's a , it's a bike lock . Of course they don't. Right. I mean , nobody's set up for the , at maybe when we're all plugged into Elon's Neurolink or something, we'll just get updates. Oh, it's a bike lock. Don't shoot 'em . Oh, great. So now we know, but they don't know. Right? And , and it's a bunch of disparate information funneling in from all over the place. And these officers have to process it in real time. They have to save lives. There are multiple different routines to use programming language going on at the same time, which ones take priority, which ones take precedent. And what are you supposed to do about it? When one of those breaks, are you supposed to charge that officer with a crime look what's happening elsewhere. Here, we see that the polls are sort of coalescing again around decisions, charges for both manslaughter charges, possibly for both the killing of Danielle, Daniel and Valentina charges for neither hanging on with about 25%. So we're seeing a pretty clear majority there charges. Now we'll see. We'll see if it goes. I'm not so sure that we're gonna see any criminal charge come down and remember it doesn't necessarily even matter. I mean , look it , look , I shouldn't have said that it absolutely matters, but what my point is, even if they bring criminal charges, it may not ultimately matter. I was looking at Garrett Wolf . Remember Garrett Rolf , Garrett Wolf was the officer out of Atlanta who shot Ray char Brooks. We cover that story a long time ago. His case is , is kind of just fizzling out because the prosecutors over there can't get it together. And so you can see that might happen here or elsewhere. Sea Wolf says, at what point does criminal recklessness apply to police? LAPD needs better psych evals of its officers. This guy looked like a trigger happy cop who grew up watching Rambo movies. He did seem pretty excited about it. Move , move , move , get out of the way. Let me go take care of this. You know? And I don't know. I don't know that you can mind read somebody else like that, right? Read their minds. But that was my impression watching him seems like that might have been your impression, sea Wolf and many others. Obviously out there we have monster one says the entire argument. It was just a bike lock as complete BS. The dude had a deadly weapon already demonstrated his willingness to use it. Nobody would use the argument. He was no longer dangerous if he had a gun at the moment, but wasn't shooting well, you up monster one . That's because a gun is a gun and a bike lock is a bike lock. I mean, even if he threw it at you, as hard as he could and you stood there with your forehead, like get me right here, go ahead, Daniel, do your worst. You get a bump on your head really? Now if he threw it because he was 20 feet, it away . If he lunged, if he came running at you, if he came running towards that officer. Absolutely. No question. Shoot. Yeah. Cuz he's, he's now approaching, but he wasn't doing that. He was going the other direction. He was going actually like laterally perpendicular. We saw that the hallway was here. The, there was like a T going on. This officer was coming up the T and Daniel was going this way, not down the T towards the officer. So if he was, if he was actually a dangerous threat, I would say 100% justified. But at that moment he wasn't. If the officer was there 20 seconds earlier and he was swinging that over the head to crack that woman on that head all day. But that wasn't the situation. He was standing there 20 feet away without a gun. And the LAPD knew that. And that guy was not the first person on the scene. There were other people on the scene there first as Sergeant Bob mentioned, and Sergeant Bob also said that they get there to assess the situation and they were telling him, slow down, hold up, wait a minute. And he didn't do it. So he should have been listening to them. If they were there getting their bearing straight, he should have said, oh, okay. Tell me what to do next there, since you're here. But he DIDNT allow that to happen. He just kept going and going. And former Elio says my entire career. I worked with a steady partner and we knew how each other would respond. This appeared to be a cluster with officers responding as individuals and not as a part of a team concept. I did get that feel. Also there, former Elio , I definitely got that feel. It sort of felt like they were , were just patching this whole thing together. There was a little bit of organization at the front of it when they were going in , you could see that they were in a line. They were in formation and they were going into the front. They were shouting. Then they got in there and guys got on the top and then Jones got his gun and just ran down the hall. Leroy Jenkins right down Burlington coach for not good thunder. Seven says, Rob, your comment about him being cavalier is without justification. You are making assumptions. What if the cop was acting on instinct on adrenaline like Kim Potter. If I were inside that store, I wanna be protected against that violent criminal and not have police hesitate while he smashes my head in cop. Doesn't know what is going on with the criminal, all this anti-cop rhetoric. And Monday morning quarterbacking really upsets me. Cops want to help? Not hurt. They don't like to shoot anyone thunder seven. I really appreciate that comment. And I think that a lot of people would agree with you on that. I think a lot of PE and , and look, I think I generally agree with you that cops don't want to shoot people. Right? I think that generally speaking cops don't want to shoot people. I think that there are cops that want activity. I've seen it. I've I've interviewed them. I've had conversations with them. I've been on a activities, you know, doing things, seeing how they observe things, how this all works. There are cops that are adrenaline junkies. They want action. They want activity. They wanna get out there and get involved in this stuff. They don't wanna be paper pushers. They're not there writing report. Oh, your cat's missing. You're kidding me again. Where do you think he went? Is he on the tree again? Ms. Jones ? Well, we're just gonna have to go get that cat for you then. Are you or uh , oh, your purse got stolen. You lost your , somebody took your iPhone outta your purse. Great. What do you want me to do about that? Go find it. No, we're not gonna do that. Right? They wanna go out there and get activity. They want that they want action. And it's, it's absolutely the real thing. Don't, you know, it's, it's naive to think that they , these people just wanna push papers around. This is an active, you know, force. And part of that is for good reason. Like we want people who wanna go out there and, and hit the streets and engage with some of the unsavory aspects of our society. A lot of that is good. You need that, but you have to be able to taper that in. You gotta be able to balance that out so that people don't just run around and start shooting people. And I know it's upsetting thunder seven and I, and I really appreciate your perspective. I don't mean this show to it . Be like a dog pile on either side. Although sometimes it can be, of course I'm a defense attorney. I'm gonna go that way. But I don't have the general disdain for police that a lot of other people have. You know, I'm not an all cops or bad guy. I think that vast majority of cops are good people. Sergeant Bob is here. Former EEO is here. We've got a lot of them here, our community. And so anytime somebody's like, you know, all cops are bad, they're all monsters. They're all working for the man. I don't like that because we have to live in a society. We want to encourage the good elements to stay and get rid of the bad elements. But that means you gotta call 'em out the bad elements and you gotta be able to analyze these things on their face. It's why I scream about it . Accountability and transparency. Let's call it out so we can decide. And I know that people are gonna disagree. This is why this is important that we have these conversations and why I think this stuff gets settled up in the court of law. And of course the court of public opinion. Thank you for sharing that. Thunder seven I'm I'm grateful that you're here. I mean that Sergeant Bob also says, you, you are our fight. These calls are, you are right. I think these calls are by nature. Chaotic call info is important, but unseen situation is more important. Often the call info is one thing. And what officers see on arrival and while handling the call, changes everything by the way, the diamond formation and is the one I trained on the AR rifle guy is always on point Jones, probably trying to get in his position. This is used in active shooter situation. Sometimes diamond formation is used in situations other than active shooting, good discussion and comments by all. Yeah. And that's thank you for that Sergeant Bob and right . And that's, and that's sort of what we're trying to do here is foster that conversation. I think that on a lot of these cases, you know, people can agree to disagree. You can disagree without being disagreeable. And you know, there are consequences to all this stuff. I , I I've said this before. You know, if you, if you want to, to dump on the police at every turn, there are gonna be consequences for that. The pendulum them SW way too far from my liking back during this, you know, defund the police BLM, all that's is nonsense. And so if you, you know, if , if , as a society myself included as a defense lawyer, right? If you, if you want to make the police, the enemy of everything, you gotta deal with the consequences. I'm not willing to do that, but I am willing to call the bad police, the bad officers out. And I wanna make sure that the institution holds them accountable in the process, because I have a problem when institutionally there's corruption to a level where you can't have that accountability, you can't have that transparency. Thank you for that. Sergeant Bob I'm , like I said, I'm grateful that you're here. Spawn doc says huge mistake on his part seemed way over us . Very, very sad that poor family will have to live with this. And this will be their Christmas memory for the rest of their lives. I hope that they find healing. Somehow chairman of the board says, I always default in siding with the police in these situations because they risk their lives daily. This one is tough. I have a 14 year old daughter, so maybe it's hard for me to see this one without bias. Doesn't seem like the, I didn't know that he didn't have a gun is good enough. 10 feet may be covered quickly, but there's a guy in Texas trying to make the same argument after the front porch incident. All of law seems to agree that because the guy wasn't coming at him at the time, he wasn't allowed to shoot, how is this different? And shouldn't be the police be more well trained than the porch guy. That's for chairman of the board. Um, I think this one's a little bit different because you have a, a tangential issue here. You have the defense of others issue in that other porch case. That was the Chad Reed case. I still haven't made a video on that. I'm following that case. I wanna see if they charge him or not. If there's some formal investigation taking place, it'll probably be worth a comment because I'll have some official court documents. But the distinction here between that one chairman, if you compare and contrast these two, that was Chad Reed and Kyle Caruth . I think them two of them fighting. So the threat of lethal force , uh , or the, the , the attempted argument for justification, why the shooter might be justified is because he was fearful of a use of force against him personally, right? He was fearful for , for himself. This is different because this officer was not from what I can gather for fearful of himself. I think he was fearful of other people and of, of the victim who was on the ground. So it's a little bit different. It's like defensive others versus defensive self, a different justification. But the underlying base point is the same, in my opinion, right? The guy at that moment, when, when the police officer pulled the trigger, was he a threat of Le a lethal it to anybody? Was he a threat of serious bodily harm to anybody? Not that I saw. And so I think at that moment, he was not even, you know, a second after that he could not have been that he , they were, they were totally surrounded. I mean, he was surrounded by everybody. If he would've had a gun or, or , you know , we see a drawing of a knife or a gun or something, or we see a volital act. If we see him come towards the officer or come towards that woman on the ground, totally different story. But, but as it stands, I think it , it is a little bit more, there's an extra element in there that is not in the other case, hand of nod says, but for the California justice system, you can draw a line, a criminal career and see where it's going. The rifle report would be deafening indoors. The ambiguity on how the child was shot is distasteful. The push ahead seems an urge to be an extraordinary tip of the spear. The calls to slow down show indicate how broken the police approach might be diagnosed. I pity the officer, his white night syndrome kicked in. How did the females not hear the frantic calls to evacuate? And the many feet shuffling out the store stay vigilant. Hand of nod is here. Thank you for that comment. Yeah. I think that there's, there's a lot there. Yeah . You know, the police sort of were they ambiguous about that? Yeah. I guess there was some ambiguity, you know, our investigation is still ongoing, but it looks like we might have shot her. You did. Yeah. We know that. Right. And the bouncing off the thing, we don't know, but they are a law enforcement agency. I expect them to advocate for their side. Just like I expect the defense to advocate for the defense side. We live in an adversarial system. That's a good thing. The police coming out there and being hardnosed police, you know, we are out there, justice. We fight for, you know, we , we risk our lives all day, all that stuff. Right. That's them fighting for their , for their side. We're doing the same thing we're saying, oh yeah. Well what about the constitution? And the fourth amendment and the fifth amendment and the sixth amendment. What about those? Okay . Cuz that's our job. That's what we are Fu for. We're aggressive. And as long as both sides can be respectful about that and meet in the middle. That's a good thing. But when, when these agencies make it difficult to hold officers accountable because they muddle the water up or they, they , they muddy it up. That's where I have a problem when they interfere with the accountability and the transparency that we expect, can't allow that to happen. That's why we started this show. So we can talk about it and call 'em out. <laugh> we have another one from Molly, says anything on Maxwell today. It's a great question. We kind of glossed right over that. No, not really. There was a little bit of an update. The court, the judge might come down and scold them about coming to a decision. Soon. Judge had a conversation today about the Aron variance saying that this thing is getting hot outta New York. And so, you know , sort of hinting that they may be urging them to come to a decision more quickly, maybe keeping them longer tomorrow, you know , after hours or, you know, know kind of nudging them in a strong direction. But no, not , not too much happened today that I can recall. We'll see what tomorrow has. There were also some updates in the Virginia Duray case. And so we've got, we've got a lot of Maxwell stuff that we can't talk about, but we just wanted to , uh, uh, let , let , let some more updates happen in , in the Maxwell case , uh , on a lighter note, somebody says, at least he wasn't in a wheelchair that comes from funny guy. Really funny guy says too bad. He wasn't in a wheelchair like that. Other guy that officer Remington shot and killed down in Tucson, Arizona, shout out that the Pima county attorney's office is just, I , I , I , I don't know what they're doing. <laugh> I don't know what they're doing. I think twiddling their thumbs down there, but pretty obvious that that guy needs to be charged. He was fired charge him. Chairman of the board says, I'm not saying the cops should go to jail. But if what he did is within the guidelines of his training and department policy, there should be a huge lawsuit in my humble opinion. And your boy, Ben Crump is already on scene . Of course, that guy, good Lord. You know, he's just taken a third or probably 40% of all these settlements everywhere he shows up for doing basically nothing. I would guess , uh , other than posting some tweets criminal charges for both, we're now at 74.6%. Woo man, that's a serious , uh, we're we're getting close to here . Folks. We've got not justified and criminal charges for both. I'm a little surprised by that. Actually. I , I was thinking to be more even that's very, very interesting. So I, you know , I agree with it. I agree with it, but we'll see if anything happens. I am skeptical about that. We have some others coming in from watching the watchers.locals.com. And I got a few more minutes before I got a Kincaid says for a trained individual, responding by physicals means only is roughly one fourth of a second, that officer could have taken and waited to verify and considered the position of that guy. I think so too. I think he could have waited. He could have absolutely done something else. Uh , James Crouse , the prosecutor from the Kyle written house case says Rob hop was totally at fault. Sometimes you just have to take a beating. Ugh . Well done. Whoever did that well done. Sometimes you just have to take a beating <laugh> it's so true. That comment wins the whole comment section. That was absolutely true. Look, you don't need to shoot anybody. It's just a bike lock. Okay. We've all been in fights from time to time, a couple cracks in the head with a , uh , cryp night lock . Not a big deal. It's a good one. Monster. One says, sorry, not trying to be harsh, but if our leaders did their and help people accountable, these things wouldn't happen. This guy being on the streets was a failure of our justice system. If she was illegal, it's a , it's a failure of the immigration system. If liberals did their job, none of this would've happened well, that's, that's true. You know, if our, if we had to be fair monster one, if we had competence in our , uh , our government in general, things would be a lot better, but we're , that's not gonna happen. What are you nuts? We have somebody else says , sorry. It was my bad English. In the first version you showed us his shouting when he saw the woman seemed to me like someone who was not that trained to see blood. And yes it's UUA yes, I got it. Cool. All right . I thought that was said , I thought it was UUA . That's awesome. So yes, that was Ms . Danny who is here. Uh, I think your English is perfect. I understood. I think I understood what you were saying. Yes. I see what you're saying. So saying that officer Jones seemed a little bit squeamish. He seemed a little bit kind of like, oh , that's kind of weird. Why is he reacting that way to seeing the blood? He shouting when he saw the woman seemed to me, like he's not trained, right? He's he's maybe overreacting saw blood thought, oh my God, somebody's being murdered because there's blood, which is not the case at all right. People bleed all the time and it's not even a big deal. C says, Rob, if you were a prosecutor, are you charging officer Jones? If so, with what? Uh , probably, yeah, I think I probably would. I think I, you know, I have to investigate it a little bit further of course, and do my due diligence. And I don't like bringing criminal charges against people unnecessarily. And I'm not just eager to go and do that. Like some of these other knucklehead prosecutors that you'll find all over this country, including in Arizona, charging people unnecessarily and not negotiating when it's well merited. So his case zeroes , if I did a thorough investigation and I saw that offer officer Jones was acting outside of the confines of what was permissible behavior for the LAPD. If he did something that was reckless or, or , or gross negligence, which I think he kind of did, right. You can't just kill two people and get away with it. So there , there would be something coming, probably manslaughter charges probably be is something similar to , uh, to Kim Potter. I think that would be appropriate because you just, when people die, there need to be consequences for it. And , uh, that's just how it goes. Sorry, Alec Baldwin, John Dolar says, you would think that after everything that has happened in this country, cops would learn their lesson. Yeah. You, you know, look, it it's, it it's , I think it's hard to, to sort of displace, you know, what's happening in, in real time with like a political lesson. So like I'm sure that Kim Potter, wasn't thinking about Derek Chauvin when that whole incident happened. Like, oh God, I better not accidentally shoot this kid. Otherwise I could be convicted just like Derek Chauvin was, you know , I , I , I don't think people sort of operate in that way, but certainly from an institutional level, you know, you'd say guys , uh, I , I don't know how you'd handle it, honestly, in a police department, like as big as the LAPD, they're like a small country. They're like an army essentially. So I don't know how you go about restructuring that I think that probably that's part of the problem is that it is so stinking, big and unmanageable that you really can't manage stuff like this, which is why I'm a big proponent of local, right? We want , we , you know, which is a whole separate conversation, John Dolar , but it's a , it's a tough solution. You know, how do you deal with the LAPD? That's a billion dollar industry. That's a billion dollar organization that has to have, you know, basically public service professionals going around and dealing with things in a government bureaucracy. It's very difficult to do. Monster. One says, I wasn't talking about the officer safety. I was talking about other people. The officer has no idea who was on the other side of the aisle , who the dead guy could have been heading towards. I guess we just let people bash people over the heads now. Well, no mustard , one . That's not what I'm saying. I don't want anybody to be bashed over the head. I am firmly anti head bashing on this channel. I wanna be clear about that. Crystal clear. I do not endorse using bike locks over people's skulls. Not appropriate, not a nice thing to do, but I didn't think that the officer was justified on this one. Sergeant Bob says good perspective, Robert, you're still my pal. And I love you back Sergeant Bob. And I mean that for everybody here, thunder seven, I don't want anybody to get too upset about this stuff. It's important that we dialogue this. You know, this is something you think about it like the Socratic method or something that you do in law school. You throw out a big meaty, just juice ball and you just say, oh, this is gonna be good. Just wait for this one. And then everybody can just sort of, you know, pick it apart. And it gives us the opportunity to play mental gymnastics a little bit, except this isn't, you know, theoretical. This is the real world. We have people now that are no longer with us. We have a law enforcement agency that could probably use, you know, a little bit of improvement as I think all of them could as our government could in general. And I think that it's important to have these conversations so that the bad ideas can be thrown aside and the good ideas can stick. And maybe we see some improvements across our society and it's not possible unless we're dialoguing. So thank you for that monster. One says, I don't like the fact that people are already using a bad jury decision, like Potter to justify going after the police. I sincerely think people should lose the ability to call the police. When you call 9 1 1, if you advocated against police, you should just be told, sorry, it's just a bike lock . So now, now you're kind of speaking my language monster one. Now you're talking about, maybe we just get rid of the police or you have a voluntary connection with law enforcement, right? Yeah. You get to pay for your own law . Now it's kind of a libertarian dream. Oh, you want police services pay for them? Why that creates incentives? The proper incentive structure. If Amazon doesn't deliver your package, they lose a customer. They've got a pretty strong incentive to deliver your package. What if you privatize law enforcement? Ooh , that's a whole separate topic and we're running outta time. We've got one from thunder. Seven says, Rob, I do see your point. I'm actually, you're talking about this. People are expressing themselves. It's true that there are cops who love the action. I think once we know more, we can all make more informed conclusions. My gut tells me this cop was acting on instinct to help the people, not knowing what the criminal was doing or what he had in his hand. I pray for the cop as he might become suicidal, knowing he killed a young girl, accidentally suicides in law enforcement is getting higher. And I, I , and that's, it's an amazing point, thunder seven. And I wanted to , to , you know , express some empathy and some grace for that officer and his family regardless. Okay. Of what he intended to do with Daniel Lopez. I , um, you know, 99.9, nine , 9% sure that that 14 year old girl was not anywhere in the equation, regardless. So even if this guy, you know, how has a, has a different maybe decision making idea about what law enforcement should look like or what the in interaction of lethal force looks like, and maybe his opinion is reasonable and maybe my opinion's reasonable and we can agree to disagree. I don't think for a minute. And I wouldn't impute upon him. Any, any ill motive in wanting to shoot a 14 year old girl? Right? I would never or say that, but, but it is a consequence of law enforcement action. Okay . Law enforcement came to the scene. Two people are dead. The nobody killed them other than the police. Okay . So yeah. I mean, you know , the , the , you know , there's a lot of comments. Yeah. He could have just kept beating people over the head. He could have , maybe he wouldn't have killed anybody. The cops killed two people. He kill anybody. So I understand that, you know, but it's, it's, it's very emotional and I'm Ugh , time's up. We got former LIO says, I don't believe the facts will support the use of deadly force to stop the threat. And we got one more from realtor, Patty . Good to see you, realtor, where you been says, can the cops use that employee was telling everybody to evacuate and mom and the daughter didn't leave. So it's not their fault. That's from realtor, Patty . Um, I don't think that, that the police would be able to sort of issue liability here because they didn't follow a , you know, a non-law enforcement order or something like that. It's a good question . I think what you're asking about is like contributory negligence. They didn't, excuse me, they didn't follow instructions. And so they're a part of the problem and they can't be compensated or they can't be , uh, held to be the victims because they were participatory in the , uh , final outcome. And that my friends is it for us for the day. I wanna thank you for being a part of the show. It is Tuesday. And so we wrap this up quick, hard at the half hour and we are there. And so we're gonna leave it right there. I want to thank you for being a part of this show. I appreciate it. If you leave us a, like a thumbs up before you head on outta here would appreciate it. If you shared the show with a friend, your family member say, Hey, come on by. We do these live streams. They're fun. We talk about some of these, you know, juicy issues from time to time. And that way we can continue on with these conversations. We're gonna do it all again here tomorrow, maybe Maxwell, maybe whatever else is happening. I look forward to seeing you then my friends and tell then be, well, bye, bye .