Watching the Watchers with Robert Gruler Esq.

Ghislaine Maxwell’s 60th Birthday Afterparty and Jury Deliberation Continues

December 27, 2021 Robert Gruler Esq.
Watching the Watchers with Robert Gruler Esq.
Ghislaine Maxwell’s 60th Birthday Afterparty and Jury Deliberation Continues
Show Notes Transcript

Ghislaine Maxwell turned 60 years old on Christmas Day and many people are still recovering from the party! We review the day’s developments, including several juror questions and a recap of the testimony from the trial.

🔹 Mindmap: https://mm.tt/map/2105681969?t=Q999Oc3TcG
🔹 Ghislaine Maxwell jurors are back in session after a 4-day hiatus for the Christmas break.
🔹 Maxwell turned 60 years old and was greeted with a hug by her lawyers.
🔹 What did Ghislaine Maxwell choose for dinner for her birthday celebration? Meatloaf!
🔹 Jurors have several requests, including highlighters and sticky notes.
🔹 Jurors ask Judge Alison Nathan about the definition of enticement and she responds.
🔹 Review of Ghislaine Maxwell jury instructions regarding “enticement.”
🔹 Jurors want transcripts! Officer Parkinsons, Epstein Pilot David Rogers and all the victims.
🔹 Judge Nathan hints that jurors may be pushed a little harder to reach a verdict.
🔹 What is an Allen Instruction in Federal Court and how does it work?
🔹 Your comments and questions!

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Speaker 1:

Hello, my friends. And welcome back to yet. Another episode of watching the Watchers live . My name is Robert grr . I am a criminal defense attorney here at the R and R law group in the always beautiful and sunny Scottsdale Arizona. And today we're talking about Maxwell and her happiest 60th earth day . Oh , isn't that sweet. She turned 60 years old and she celebrated in custody of the New York penitentiary there, the prison out at the justice department center out of New York city. And so we're gonna break down what was going on. She had a Christmas present, I think come to he cell. She had a, the birthday dinner and she also had the jurors ask some pretty interesting questions today. Jurors wanted to know about the word enticement it's in the jury instructions. It says that they have to determine what that means, and they needed a little bit of guidance from the court today. So we're gonna take a look at several different jury questions that came in, not too much in terms of questions, but more specifically, they had demands. They wanted highlighters. They wanted post-it notes. They wanted all sorts of office supplies essentially, and they wanted transcripts. And they're gonna go through and review these puppies, highlight 'em up, mark. 'em up, put some sticky notes, you know, go through 'em in detail. And so specifically they want to hear from officer Parkinson's. This was the guy that was , uh, coordinating the raid down at the Palm beach location. Interesting officer. He was in this magazine. And so we're gonna go through that. Revisit his testimony. We're also gonna revisit some of the testimony of David Rogers. Of course, this is Epstein's co-pilot. They wanted to hear from him. And then just, there's a whole kind of other smattering of news because the judge is now wondering how long this is gonna take. They just had a four day hiatus for the Christmas break jurors or back . They didn't come to a decision today and it doesn't sound like they're gonna be coming to a decision soon. In fact, it sounds like they need some supplies, cuz they're gonna be hunkering down there for a while . They probably want some coffee, some red bulls , some five hour energy drinks. I mean, they're gonna be hunkering down. It's like final season in there. So we've got a lot to talk about. If you wanna be a part of the show, the place to do that is over@watchingthewatchersdotlocals.com. They are chatting away over there. We've got B spec leafy bug. We've got Molly pop inks in the house, all chatting away. Jerry Madrid is there as well. So shout outs, we are not on rumble today. Rumble was not allowing me to connect. So if you're wondering why there's no rumble stream, that's why, but we're also on YouTube. And so on locals, if you're a supporter over there, there's a form looks just like this. If you want to ask a question, we will do our very best to get to those. And we also have a clips channel that looks like this. The clips are a lot more convenient to share with friends or family. And we appreciate when you do that. And so Galin Maxwell, jury deliberation is still underway and the jurors had several questions today. We're going to take a look at what those were. They want some supplies and they want some things to help them in their analysis. And so we'll break down what those are, but we , we also are going to be trying to tease out what this means. Okay. So yes, they have questions. Yes. That's interesting. Yes. They want to hear from the pilot again. Okay. But what are they thinking? And so we're gonna spend some time on the show today. Seeing if we can exercise that muscle a little , a little bit and tease out what is happening. And so we're gonna revisit some of the script. We're gonna take a look at specifically what these people said, why do the jurors wanna read what they said? Is it because of birth dates? Is it because of timing issues? Do they just have some issues with that person's credibility or what is going on? And so as this show unfolds and we learn a little bit more about what's going on in the juror's minds. My question for you of course, is what do you have to say about it? What do you think about this? We have the poll form, which is now pinned over in the chat on YouTube. And let's take a look here. The poll form will share that one more time. See if we can get some, get some responses on some of this stuff and we'll take a look at it. And we'll see if this changes throughout the show. We'll see if there's any , uh , sort of maneuvering <affirmative> of the questions , uh , of the responses. So here we have Glenn Maxwell verdict, guilty, all counts. We've got a 50% here, five outta 10, say guilty, all remaining counts. We've got two say not guilty. So only 10 responses. I just posted this, but we'll see. We'll check back in at the end of the show. And uh, the split verdict is looking like it's three. So 30%, five guilty and 20% say not guilty. And so the responses are gonna be coming in. As you can see, they're changing right now as the stream catches up with the results. And so we'll, we'll check back in. We'll see if this is just, we've got one vote for a hung jury. And as the show unfolds, we'll check back in with the poll results. Now, while many of you were celebrating the birth of your Lord, our Lord and savior, maybe not yours, depending on who you are, what you think or what you believe. But many people were celebrating Christmas over the holidays. And some other people were celebrating Golin Maxwell, cuz it was her 60th birthday. In fact, she got a little bit of a warm applause. When she walked into court to today , we have a new person who is reporting that we're gonna be following along here on this channel. Big shout out to Marta. Dan , she's a news buff and she's giving us some reporting here. She says that Maxwell walked inside the courtroom for the first time. This morning at 10:27 AM. She was wearing a camel turtleneck in black pants. She seemed happy to see her defense team. And she went to hug each one of them. Laura Menninger was there Christian ever Dell , Bobby stern Heim . And then lastly we have Paka . The G is silent , like lasagna, who loudly said Tolin happy birthday, Ms. Maxwell . Here's what that looked like in court. Just a love Fest this morning, gal Maxwell, walking in and giving her a , just a big, lovely hug. Happy birthday, sweetheart. How was it now that you're 60 years old. Do you have any advice for us? Anything you'd like to share with us? If you had to do it all over again, what would you like to say anything? Well, it's hard to celebrate there when you're in federal custody, but she did get some benefits. Her Christmas dinner in prison was a delicious meal of meatloaf and mashed potatoes, which honestly I can't complain about that. That I have nothing bad to say about that. He won't catch me complaining about meatloaf and or mashed potatoes. Pretty good. Call there. Jeffrey Epstein's alleged sex trafficking accomplished Glen . Maxwell's gonna mark Christmas day and her 60th birthday behind bars with meat and mashed potatoes. She's gonna be served a festive lunch on Christmas day. She's gonna turn 60 on Christmas day, but of course we'll be behind bars. She's currently being housed in the Metro detention center, Brooklyn, New York, her brother, and many others have described this as a hell hole in like a third world country saying that she's eating rotten eggs and that the toilet and the sewage is leaking back up in her cell and so on and so forth. So it's got a pretty bad reputation. Of course this is <laugh> the same facility. Uh , I believe it's the same facility catty corner where Jeffrey Epstein , uh , didn't meet a nice end. But the says , despite its reputation, the prison's Christmas menu includes a spread of beef, meatloaf gravy, mashed potatoes, tuna, potato chips, fresh fruit and vegetable juice, which is not terrible. Doesn't sound too bad. A former guard has also claimed that prisoners are tradit given Christmas gifts of socks and peanuts. So you get some socks and peanuts on Christmas. If you're goin Maxwell and you get a big serving of meatloaf looks pretty good. As I said, huge fan of meatloaf. My mother makes probably the best meat loaf on the planet. So shout out to mom. So Golin Maxwell is eating that. Now the big question that we've all had, of course <laugh> , you know, are they, how long are they gonna be deliberating? What if the jury deliberation here lasts longer than the actual trial? Could that be the case? In other words, the jurors are gonna go through the evidence a little bit more, more detail than was even presented because it only took eight days of the government prosecution before they arrested their case. That's all they needed gigantic case involving multiple decades, four victims, dozens of witnesses spanned the globe resolved in eight days. It's all we do. Not a big deal. Yeah. We can just knock it out. Yeah, we can get it done two weeks. No problem. We'll get it done. So that's what they did. And <laugh> the jurors have been deliberating for several days and they just ask for a bunch of stuff. So it doesn't look like they're wrapping up anytime soon. Here's what the AP is reporting. Sounds like maybe this is not coming to a close jurors during the goin Maxwell case requested a whiteboard in different colored sticky notes on Monday as it signaled that it had plenty of work to do after a long holiday weekend, they also asked about enticement. All of this began in the courtroom today. You can see this is what a sketch artist rendered for us. You've got a couple of attorneys up there at the bench, which looks like a very handsome judge. Allison , Nathan, this is Maxwell. And uh, so they're sitting in court having conversations about this. We have Marta Dan who's reporting says hello from Manhattan federal court. Jury's gonna resume its deliberations today. After a short holiday break, she also took a break Merry Christmas it's day 16 of the trial and the fourth day of deliberations. Okay. So remember the , the prosecutors presented their case in eight days. The jurors have now been deliberating for four days. <laugh> so if they a full eight days, well then they've been deliberating longer than the prosecution even presented. Now of course, it hasn't been that much time. So far, they've been liberating for about 16 hours. So they've been there for four days, but they've been late and there's been issues and they've been requesting documents that weren't prepared for them. And so all of this has been going back and forth. So Marta tells us us , all jurors are in the courthouse and they've resumed their deliberations. And so today we're gonna Pou bounce around between a couple of the different law, Twitter people we've got , uh , Ms . Dans . We're gonna take a look at inner city press as always. And we're gonna check in with Adam Feld over from law and crime. So please follow all of those people for their amazing reporting. Marta . Uh , Ms . Danis is telling us here that the jurors come out and they give us their first note of the day the jury is asking for. And she gives us quote supplies, including quote , different color post-its. So <laugh>, they also want a white paper board and they want highlighters. Uh , oh , so there's like, you know, a whole slew of things that you can glean from that. So, you know, first of all, you've got, you've got a couple people in here who are like ultra type a, hold on a minute, we're gonna have to break this down here. We should get some , uh , some markers and things. We should get some markers and some post notes. And somebody says, hold on a minute, we need different color post-it notes. Don't just get us a stack of yellow ones. What are you nuts? We're gonna color coordinate this puppy. And we're gonna , you know, somebody's probably in there saying maybe we should make a mine map of this. Maybe we should get some mine map software. What do you guys think? You know , what the heck are you talking about lunatic? So they say, just get some post-it notes. All right . All right . So they get some different colored post-it notes. They're gonna get white paper board and they're gonna get highlighters. And they're just gonna <laugh> they're just gonna mind map the whole thing. We there's a lot you can glean from that. You know, the question of course, is, is that a good thing? If you're the prosecutors, you're thinking the is a slam dunk case, they just go in here, you present the four victims, everything they need to know, what are they thinking about? Maybe this sets you on your heels a little bit. We've got people who are gonna diagram this whole thing. We don't want them to prove the case. We proved it. All they need to do is just sign off on it. So it sounds like for the defense, maybe this is a good thing. Not as open and shut as you think. They're gonna try to go in here and try to analyze all this. So you can maybe put that in the can for the defense. They're also asking for a max transcript, which we're gonna hear is not a Maxwell transcript. It actually is Matta transcript. So M a T T apostrophe S a transcript belonging to Matt , not max transcript. We're gonna see that's what that was. We're also gonna see that they want a definition of enticement, and we're gonna spend some time breaking that down because it is interesting lawyers. And the judge now, according to Ms Donis are having conversations and Adam class failed over at long crime is reporting , uh , a little bit differently or not differently, but a different angle. He reports the same thing. Post-its highlighters of different colors. So maybe not different color post-it notes, but at least different color highlighters, and then whiteboard paper and Matt's transcript. They also want a definition of enticement. So little things there, some of those things, they may, they may sound like they don't matter, but there is a difference between PostIt notes, with different colors or highlighters with different colors. Are they gonna be, you know, highlighting the transcripts with different colors? Are they gonna be marking different exhibits with different PostIt notes, right? Like you could think of one sample, you could say, okay, we're gonna mark everything that came from Jane with a blue PostIt note, but we're gonna highlight , uh , everything else that is , uh, you know, maybe everything that, that we , we could categorize as potential enticement. We're gonna categorize that with a blue highlighter. And so you're gonna do Janes . You're gonna do Kates. You're gonna do Annies and so on, and then they're gonna reassemble and then they're gonna whiteboard it. Okay. What'd you find for enticement? Well , hold on a second. Let me go to my thing. My high blue highlighter is what I found. All right . Report back to this guy and he's reporting it on the whiteboard that he's writing up on the wall. So they've got a whole little system that they're creating and we're trying to figure out what the heck it , how, how it works. And so he's got , uh, we've got a lot of , a lot of different office supplies that they want. And the judge is probably face palming. We can't see it in court, but I'm guessing she's face palming right now. Cuz she's going, Ugh , kind of what they don't want the jurors to do because folks, they have 80 something pages of jury instructions that they have to go through. There's a lot here. They could spend two years going through those jury instructions. You could teach, you could teach this case for in law school for, for a decade, cuz there's so much going on. So the jurors are gonna wanna go and , and play around with that. Well , all right . So they also wanna know what enticement means. You can see here that Adam CLA fell did a control F on this puppy, 21 times where it showed up in the actual jury instructions. So enticement is all over the place and that's something that is a very important word. As we're going to find out, we check in with inner city press. He gives us also a breakdown. He says, okay, as of 10, 20 8:00 AM Maxwell is brought out of the holding cell. We get the same note talking about enticement, but then prosecutor, us attorney says to the judge, all right , okay. They want a definition of enticement, but we've already defined. This prosecutor says, judge, on page 20, one of your instructions, you defined it. You said enticement is defined in its ordinary everyday meaning. And that's what they should be told. Judge. Nathan's like, mm , okay , let me take a look here. She stares back down at her computer. She's pretty much thinking of her promotion up to the circuit court of appeals. So she's just staring away under her computer. And then Maxwell's defense lawyer, Christian ever Dell . He comes out is your honor, there are cases Def finding enticement. I don't have them at hand. Nathan says, well, I've got one. That's what I was looking at there. Christian it's us versus Almonte . Is that the one that you had in mind Mr. Ever, and ever says? Well , uh , uh , uh , I think we cited a case in our rule 29 argument. Uh , there was also one of about causation too . So he doesn't have the case at hand has one and she's probably reading it and deciding what it says. And this continues. So judge Nathan is mulling this over, digging into the co court screen, computer screen, all right , this is what I'm gonna write. She says, I'm gonna write dear jury. We are gathering the supplies you've requested on enticement. Please refer to the jury charge, which we are going to look at. That's what they get. Now there's a little bit more that comes out in a minute. But Bobby stern Heim chimes in says, Hey judge, while we're talking about some of this stuff , let me , uh , bring this to your attention. Uh , Ms . Maxwell, she's been given an N 95 mask, but she's being told to only wear it in the courtroom . Is that what you want here? And judge Nathan says , uh, no, actually that's not what I want at all. I was clear about this. The rule is in the courthouse, not the courtroom . Okay . If she's in this building, it's N 95 season, pull that mask up, pull it tight because nobody is getting sick from COVID in this courthouse. Not on my watch. Bobby says, well, look, I mean, you know, they're only saying about the courthouse or the courtroom judge Nathan says, all right , well, I will speak to the district executive's office. You tell me who was telling her that she doesn't have to wear it outside here. I want everybody in this whole building to get the mask on. And what's interesting here is that Bobby stern Heim is raising this, that she's calling it out. Okay . She's sort of alerting the court that, Hey, there's a , there's a health concern here. It'd be Bobby stern . Heim is saying, judge, essentially what let's read between the lines on what's happening here. Bobby stern Heim is saying, judge , uh , you had an order for N 95 mass to be put on. They're telling go . Maxwell only has to be in the courtroom. You said courthouse, which includes a lot more than the courtroom. They're saying differently. She is, is wearing her mask accommodating wearing her mask. But they're saying it's not necessary. Just bringing that to your attention judge, because it would be a dang shame. If Maxwell got sick from the government, transporting her all over the place and the government's agents, the jailers not following this court's order about their masks. That'd be a dang shame. Wouldn't it? Yeah. If she got sick or if this case was deterred by the government, not following the COVID protocols , uh , that , that might lead me to file a motion to, you know, dismiss the case or if it's an acquittal or if it's a guilty verdict, maybe there's a due process violation here. So what , so we can see what's happening. And so the judge says, all right , Bobby , I'll talk to the executive office about this. They'll follow the rules because ordinarily, right, nobody wants a mask. Nobody wants to wear that mask except Maxwell. Now Glen is led out of the courtroom by two us marshals first short of the podcast in day. So he has a podcast over at inner city press, please go check him out. He's also on Patreon, Matthew Russell at inner city press. And so he's reporting this little exchange about the masks. Very interesting. Now, before the enticement instruction goes back out to the jurors, remember they've got questions. What does that mean? Judge Nathan also said, when she wrote back on the, the jury note said, I will further say entice means to quote , attract, to induce or to lure using hope or desire. Well, that's an interesting little , uh , definition entice means to attract induce or were using hope or desire. All right . And so we were checking in on the poll. We were checking in on the jury verdict opinions of you, the audience, and here's where we're at 53 responses. Now it's saying that guilty. We're at 28% saying guilty. We've got splits down at 20%. We've got not guilty. All counts is 21%. And so this is still changing. Now. What , what , we'll be curious to see if these numbers change, as we continue to learn what enticement means, because enticement is a key part of the jury charges, the jury charges and the jury instructions. You can see here. This is the full table of contents. And you'll notice that right here in the middle. This is, I think page one of the table of contents. But this full document is 83 pages long. Okay. This is that big stack. This is that gigantic dossier that the jurors are given. This is why they need all the highlighters. This is why they need all the post-it notes. Cuz it's 83 pages of legalese. And you can see here. There's one word that really stands out right here in the middle it's enticement, all surrounding count two. We have jury instructions, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, all talking about enticement. So the jurors wanna know what that means. Now, if you go over to those pages, the judge is gonna refer us to this page, page 21. That gives us a definition under the first element. But let's spend some time breaking this down and ask yourself, okay, if you're a juror and you've heard all the same things that we've talked about here in the Maxwell case, and you're sitting here and you have to make a decision. Did goin Maxwell commit a violation of the law? Did she break the law under count to enticement to engage any legal activity? Well , we gotta know what the word enticement means. So let's dig in. We take a look at this page. We go to section 19, page 20 jury instruction. Number 13, this is the instruction. This is the, the manual. The jurors need to build a table. This is step one. All right , here's the relevant statute for count two. It says whoever knowingly persuades, induces or entices, there it is. Ding, ding, ding, whoever knowingly persuades, entices, or coerces , any individual to travel an interstate commerce, to engage in any activity for which the person can be charged with. An offense is guilty of a federal crime. That's the big overview. That's the broad definition. And so you can think about this almost like a map. You know, when you scroll on your phone or in your car or on Google earth, you can zoom in, right? You can kind of take a , take a, a , a big view of the globe or of your state. And you can say, Hey , I wonder if I can find my house from here, right ? Move the globe around and zoom in and zoom in and zoom in. You get to your state, you get to your city, you get to your area of town. You zoom all the way in, and then you get to your house and you say, Hey, that's my car. How cool is that same type of concept here? This is the globe. This is the outer level you can see here. This is the sentence we gotta zoom in and break this down so we can see a closer, more granular resolution. So we go to instruction, number 14, to approve the defendant guilty of that law. You have to prove each of the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt. So we're gonna zoom in and we're gonna break that statute up. And we're gonna say first that the government has to prove that Galin Maxwell knowingly persuaded or induced or enticed. There's that word again? So the jurors are getting there. They're reading this they're saying, okay. Okay. I understand enticement. I understand what this means. So we have to prove count two. Let me check first. The defendant knowingly persuaded. I know what that means. Knowingly induced. I know what that means or knowingly enticed. Well, I don't really know what that means. And they're hitting a roadblock. That's a speed bump right there. That's a dead end. So they've gotta turn back. But the question that that least for us of course is what did they decide about these? What did they just say? That , uh , Maxwell knowingly persuaded them to travel? Did they say no? Maybe they, no, no. She didn't persuade them. She didn't induce them. Uh , she definitely didn't coerce them, but what about enticed? Okay . Why would they be asking about enticed if it weren't for no answers on the other three? Because let's say, let, let's just figure this way, right ? If you're thinking logically, if, if the jurors are going through and they say first defendant knowingly persuaded an individual to travel. Okay. Yeah. She persuaded them. Sure. And then they say that the second individual did in fact travel an interstate commerce. Okay. Got that one. And then third that she did it with the intent that they would engage in illegal activity. Okay, perfect. There you go. But done cases closed, but guess what? Wasn't that simple? Why? Because they got to persuaded and they probably said no, no, I don't think persuaded. I don't know what that means. No, I don't think so. Did she induce them? Like did she induce? No, I don't think so. Either. Uhoh then they get to entice . And so now that's the question. What does entice meant mean? Because if they can prove that enticement existed or that she hit that first element, then they move on to the next one. If they can't move beyond the next one. In other words, if they only get elements two and three, then it's over. That's not guilty on this one. So they're hanging their hat on that word. Second that the individual traveled in interstate commerce. So you can say, okay, Jane. Yeah. Jane did that obviously count two . It , it says it relates solely to Jane from the period 1994 to 1997. Okay . So this is the area that we're talking about only as to Jane. So did Jane travel in interstate commerce? Yeah. Flew to wherever she flew. Third. We haven't decided this one yet, but they're gonna have to get there if they can't check the first one off, they're never gonna get to the third one that the defendant acted with. The intent that the individual would engage . In other words, that Jane would engage inactivity for which the person can be charged with an defense under New York law as alleged in the indictment. Okay . So Jane, yeah. That's right. Jane flew to New York. That's where she saw the lion king Broadway play apparently in 1997 or the movie in 1994 don't know yet. But that is what the jurors are looking at. So they see this word enticement. Well, what the heck does that word mean? It's important word. So they go over to instruction. Number 15. Now they say this is zooming in even further. So now we're not at the globe. We're not at the country. We're not at the states. We're even further in we're diving in. Now the first element of count two, which we just saw is just this one sentence right here. We're gonna zoom in on it. The first element of count two, which the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt is that Maxwell knowingly persuaded or induced or enticed or coerced an individual to travel and interstate commerce as the alleged. And this is a key sentence that says the terms, quote , persuaded, induced, enticed, and coerced have their ordinary everyday meanings. That's it? It depends on what you think it is in ordinary everyday . Meaning. So now you might have those jurors back there listening to this sentence. They're saying , uh , the judge referred them to this page. This is page 21 says 22 here. But I think there's that certificate of filing at the very end, which makes this page 21. Or before that I think there's a cover sheet or something. Anyways, it says here, the term interstate commerce simply means movement from one state to another. So, okay. That's easy. Got that one. And the term state includes any state in the United States got that one Maxwell must have acted knowingly, meaning it wasn't a mistake. It wasn't done by some other innocent reason. In other words, she knew that it was gonna happen now. And the rest of this goes on knowledge, right? Knowledge is a matter of inference from the facts. We can't actually know exactly what Galin Maxwell is thinking, but cuz we can't peer into her brain, but we can infer what she's thinking from proven facts. And so if you believe the facts to be true, then you can infer that that was what Maxwell wanted to do. This continues. It says science has not yet devised in manner of looking into a person's mind or knowing what they're thinking. Whether Maxwell acted knowingly, maybe proven by her conduct or by all the facts, circumstances surrounding the case. So big, broad scope here. Jurors could latch onto any fact that they want really and make a connection. If they're looking for one, but the more, more granular details here are about this, the terms persuaded, enticed, coerced. What does enticed mean? They say ordinary, everyday meanings. And they're only asking about it because they don't think the other ones are enough. If you throw this word in Google, something used to attract or to tempt someone all lure like financial enticements, the quality of being attractive or tempting. Despite the enticement of low prices, sales fell sharply from two thousands record level, we have another definition, the act or practice of enticing, especially to evil. This one comes over from dictionary.com says the state of being enticed or something that entices not too helpful. This one is over from, I don't know where I clipped this one, some vocabulary.com website, the act of persuading, someone to do something by offering them thing pleasant. One of the enticements of the job is the company car. Uh , one of the enticements of being around Jeffrey Epstein is you get to go to exotic islands. Foreign investors were offered every imaginable, free market enticement. Okay . So you can see now this is gonna be D for the jurors to wrap their heads around and words like this are very difficult in the law in general because there's a lot of gray area here. And sometimes enticement might be something that seems ordinary or normal or reasonable. And so it's gonna be very hard for the jurors to differentiate between the two, like what is enticement for Jane? Okay . Jane and, and many of these other victims have talked about this idea, being that they were sort of infatuated enamored by being around Epstein and Maxwell, ultra high rollers, very wealthy piled around with the most powerful people in the world. That's pretty enticing. Isn't it. That's gonna want to C that's gonna naturally cause people to want to be in your orbit. Especially if you're somebody like Jane, who wanted to be an actress who went to the interlock in school of arts, who actually did become an actress. And I think still is, feels like that's enticement, but is that a criminal enticement where the jurors take a look at that and say, Glenn , max all should be punished because people wanted to be in her orbit or are they gonna require a higher standard? There, are they gonna demand more? Are they gonna say that they want to see the witch with the apple outside in the allegorical stories saying, come here, little girl, come here, little boy, something that's more active and more volital something where Maxwell was, you know, hanging bait was dangling the carrot in front of the horse. And I'm not sure that there was much of that testimony in this trial. You know, a lot of it was less than that. She wasn't, it wasn't a quid pro quo in the testimony. It wasn't, if you come and do this, we're gonna do that. Which maybe what the jurors are looking for for a higher level of enticement. Now they're asking for a lot more jurors are also saying they want transcripts. We can see that last week, they deliberated for two full days. And they already asked for the testimony of all four women, all the four victims, along with the Epstein housekeeper one , Patricia ales seed . They wanted that testimony. And that was a lot on Monday today, jurors also asked for the transcripts of Matt. Matt was Janes . Ex-boyfriend also went by a pseudonym. They dated, he's also an actor. The judge allowed him to testify a five to protect his privacy. And so why would we need to hear from Matt? Of course, we need to be asking ourselves that Matt is not a victim. In this case, Matt only dated Jane two decades ago when this was all bubbling up, they want to check his corroboration. That's exactly why they called him to corroborate. Jane Jane came out and said, a bunch of stuff happen . Matt comes out and verifies that and they wanna dig in. They wanna read that and do the old compare and contrast, which means they're getting very granular. They're taking their highlighters. They're taking their post at they're taking their label makers and their mind maps. And they're smashing 'em all together. And they wanna know exactly what Matt said relative to Jane. Ms . Dennis is reporting again over from Twitter, says , uh, despite all the courtroom drama, a lot of us thought we were hearing about the max transcript, like the Maxwell transcript, it's actually Matt's transcript. And she says, Matt is the soap opera actor who corroborated his former girlfriend Jane's testimony, which I thought was just beautiful. He's he's a soap opera actor. I like that qualifier. I'm sure Matt would not about that. He'd say I'm an actor and she'd say you're a soap opera actor. So sort of <laugh> brutal. Dan Marta . Dan is a Savage on Twitter. So give her a follow. Love it. So we let's revisit this testimony. Why the heck are we calling Matt in the first place we already heard from Jane, Matt? Wasn't abused. What did Matt say? Can we rewind the clock a little bit? Remember this testimony, government prosecutor, Allison Moe was doing the direct examination. Matt. We never got a good sketch from him. Jane's ex-boyfriend he's over on the mine map as well. If you're browsing that around and remember some of the highlights here, ex-girlfriend dated her from 2006 to 2014, lived together 2007 to 2014. Still friends still work on the 10 same TV show, a soap opera. They talk about her home life. Miss Moe says, I'm gonna ask you a narrow question. Did Jane speak about her family? Finances? Yes. Father got sick. They were in the same bed. They were broke. Oh , maybe it's that section. Maybe the jurors want to dig in on that. Remember because Jane , uh , she had sort of a lot of privileges traveling around all over the place. Went to very nice schools, seem to be well taken care of. Maybe they are looking for the differences. Why do you compare and contrast things? You're looking for similarities or you're looking for differences. The jurors wanna see this. Why Matt says, they told me she had a godfather later. She told me it was Epstein. He helped pay her bills. More of the godfather testimony Epstein gave her money ever used the word massage. Of course they did. Did Jane tell you what happened between her? Nope. Not specifically. She tell you why he gave her money. Uh, Nope . Just said it was not free. Maybe they're digging in that is that enticement. They're asking about the word enticement simultaneously. When they're asking for his transcripts, maybe they wanna see maybe the money was enticement. And so somebody said, yeah, but somebody said, yeah, but enticement isn't that like a quid? Like don't you need something for that? And somebody said, yeah, but Matt said that Jane said that Epstein was paying her for the massages. And somebody said, well, I don't did he say that? I don't think he said that. I think he said that I don't know what she was getting the money for or why he was paying her bills, but just said it was not free. And they said , uh , well get the transcript. Then I think that's enticement the money for the massages. And you think it , you don't think it is. And you wanna see what Matt said if he confirmed it or not turns out did he ever say why he gave her money? No. Just said it was not free. That could be one. That could be one argument going on back there. Mo said you tell , uh , did they tell you about a woman who was involved? Yeah. Woman's name? What about her mother? Did Jane tell you about her mother? Not just about the money. Money was not free. And so we see this on the news. Uh , when did you learn about go Maxwell being arrested? He says on the news. So that's it no cross examination from this . Remember this was one of the witnesses. The defense didn't even ask any questions. They just let Matt take the stand. No cross examination at all. No, we don't have anything to ask for him . It sounds reasonable. All that sounds fine. Yep . That's all true. No cross examination there. So the defense had no problem with his testimony at all. And the jurors just asked for it. They're trying to compare and contrast. Be very curious to see what they conclude. The jurors also wanted testimony from another witness, Gregory Parkinson, Glenn Maxwell , and her jurors want to hear from this guy. And you remember this guy, this guy reminds me of somebody from Dexter. Actually there might be a character that no, it's not Dexter. Who is it? I don't remember. Anyways. He's from Palm beach. He's got that hat on. He is Gregory Parkinson. He's a retired police officer. So today jurors wanted a transcript from him. He was called Adam class field reports for us to , as that he was called back over to the Palm beach house in 2003, there was a reported burglary. Now remember Juan lessi , Juan lessi Epstein's housekeeper sort of property manager person Epstein was alleging that that's the same year that Epstein's ex house manager. Juan testified that he stole money from his former boss. Remember that Juan lessee took money from Epstein, Epstein reported it. This guy goes back out there. Class field reports that last week they asked for a lessee's testimony. Do you see a pattern now emerging? We get one set of testimony. They want to hear from somebody to corroborate it or rebut it this week. They wanted Matt's testimony last week that's because they got James . They read through Jane . Jane had a bunch of stuff happen. Matt's testimony's gonna come out and justify it supported. Or rebutt it . We don't know same thing happen here, Juan Alessie last week, they wanted his testimony today. They want Gregory Parkinson's testimony to confirm it or rebut it. They're working their way through all the victims and all the witnesses and everybody that the government presented thus far. So they may actually take longer than the government took to present their case. Here's what the second jury note said, and these jury notes are probably gonna be coming out. Uh , maybe tomorrow, maybe the day after that. And we'll be able to get them. I'm short says, quote , may we also have Parkinson's transcript? He was government witness number eight, retired cop. He also talked about this Marine massage table. Now let's take a look at his testimony again, quick reminder about this guy gone, but never forgotten outta west Palm beach, us retired, Lieutenant Greg Parkinson. Here he is. He's got a number of awards. He also was in this magazine Palm beach life. This issue came out December, 2007. So he is been with the police department for a long period of time. And remember, this is not far after all the ordeal with Epstein late 1970s. He was a commander of the west Palm beach. Okay. Not too much here. Now, when he came into court and testified, there was some good stuff that came out of his questioning. Why? Because he was in the search of Epstein's Palm beach residence . And we got a lot of juicy photos out of there. So he actually did the raid, but he also did this report on the theft of currency. He talked about a lot of the photos. Remember we went through a lot of these exhibits here and he also did a video walkthrough of the entire property. I think I have a clip of that here, but he gives us a lot of the photographs. This was on day five when he testified and he's just walking through the property, just showing us photograph after photograph. There's a whole video. And a lot of this stuff all gets admitted. And if you remember back during the actual trial, all of this stuff was being granted under seal. And there were redactions all over the place because this is a , uh, public trial kind of here is what that testimony sounded like. Government exhibit 2 25 under seal 2 41 under seal exhibit 2, 28 under seal photos are all spread out over the floor, but nobody can see 'em . Now. I think a lot of this stuff we actually end up, you know, seeing, but a lot of this was not, there were certain binders, right? And we saw, and a lot of this was just kept under sealed. We get a walkthrough video from this guy. And so we can't, it's hard to remember the reason we're revisiting this testimony. What, what are the jurors latching onto right now? Why do they wanna see his testimony? Is it to rebut? Wanna lessi ? And if, what specifically? Uh , we don't . So they say that this is back when we saw this entire video, they sealed the entire 39 minute video. And this was that video. This is the Palm beach property. So I think I just clipped here a minute or two, You kind of go in and see different portions of the house. And so that is all that this guy talked about. He's gathering evidence, he's doing a search. So we see here that a big portion of this was the photo. Then the last little bit here was about this green massage table. Lot of conversation about the green massage table. And this is, you know, again, we're , we're sort of thinking about a lot of these questions in the frame of enticement and jury questions. Don't know if this has anything to do with it, but this is also the guy that brought out the green massage table. This is what it looked like in court. And this was part of the evidence that was being presented to say that was , uh , all sort of conducted in interstate commerce. You know, this, this massage table was actually created in California and they shipped it over to wherever they shipped it to. I think it was in Palm beach. And because of that, it's now involved in interstate commerce. And so they actually flipped this over in court and they said to Mr Parkinson, where was this manufactured? And he said, Vista, California, there you go. And so they want to hear from him. Why might that be, could be that they want to confirm, want a lessee's testimony. It could be that they're dialing in specifically on that one issue want he had a little bit of a character for truthfulness problems there. The defense didn't exploit that too much, but they were dive diving in on that the , his prior arrest prior indications that there was a theft or something going on with this money and that because maybe he did a dishonest thing back then with a theft or a taking of money that he wasn't entitled to. That means he's a dishonest person. His truthfulness is lacking. Maybe the jurors wanna take a look at this testimony to, to key in on that. Somebody saying, Juan said this happened. Yeah, but Juan is a liar. Remember what that cop said? No, I don't. Well, let's get the transcripts. Let's see what they say. Or maybe it's not that at all. Maybe they want to go back through all the exhibits that look like this. Maybe they want to go back through all the photographs that we covered here on this channel that have big gigantic black boxes, redacting out huge walls of information. Maybe it's that the jurors yet again, have another request they say, now we want the transcript from David Rogers, David Rogers, Epstein's second pilot. He testified near the end of the case, Rogers with a D didn't know, that was correct. Gotta fix that one. He testified that he was full Jeffrey Epstein and gal Maxwell to interlock in school of arts. Remember that that was in Michigan. Jane says, that's where she met the pair in August of 1994. He said, yeah , I remember transporting Jane and also transported. Virginia jure traveled a lot on the plane class. Failed said he also testified. Now let's go back to this guy. This guy connected us with Ava Anderson Dubin and several other people. And he had some interesting testimony. Here's what he said. What are the jurors wanting from this transcript? He was the chief pilot hired 1991, flew him all over the place until 2019. This is his FAA license, Christine Negron . She has a blog over@christinenegron.com . She's got these transcript or these , um , flight logs that came from this guy. You can see them down here, pilot signature, David Rogers. And part of the testimony was about this, right? Why it say this Jeffrey Epstein one female, one female, one female, one female, everywhere you look. They were asking him about that. They said, it's weird. Why would there just be female? Why didn't you identify them now? He said, no , I didn't see anything problematic going on in the , this plane. Everybody looked over 18 to me. I had no idea what was going on. Sure. But he did tell us that Rogers Rogers said that Maxwell was in fact Epstein's number two. She was one layer below him says that they were romantically involved for a while , but then later they weren't. And remember that theme that back and forth in this case, victim or villain is goin Maxwell, a villain alongside riding shotgun right next to Jeffrey Epstein. Are they in this loving relationship, adoring each other, running through the forest , the met duo, a du meadow, the do in the meadow. You know what I'm saying? Was it that, or was she actually a victim? Was she number two? Was she somebody , uh , you know , beneath him who was being orchestrated sort of compelled under duress to do these things. And Jeffrey Epstein was really the guy at fault. Here . He was the real nefarious actor and the government is trying to manipulate this whole case and pined on go Maxwell when she had nothing to do with it. Roger says that they were romantically involved, but not anymore. Also of course, they look through the public manifests on the pilot that the pilot kept the log book , all sealed, lot of stuff, blacked out that the jurors saw talks about the different aircraft that he flew and the list goes on. And on that is the testimony. Now there's some more here talking about Virginia jure . She was on the plane 32 times. Could the jurors be asking about her? Maybe don't know how, how relevant she is. Honestly, to this from Palm beach to new Jane was on the flight, talking about Jane and enticement is all about Jane. Remember that? So they're , it seems like they're honing in on Jane. In this case, Virginia jure was on the plane. 32 times got that Rogers also testified. He piloted a total of four flights with Jane on board . Very, very interesting. Now he also talked about this person, Eva Anderson Dubin. He said that also on my flight logs was this person, Eva Epstein's former ex married to former, to a head fund manager, Glen Dubin . And so we get to her from David Rogers, we talked about this family bizarre situation here Epstein wanted to make . So Epstein actually dated this woman, Ava and shin Dubin . Then she got old, I guess, too old for him. And so she married this billionaire and then Epstein wanted to , uh , marry the daughter and the whole family calls him, uncle Jeff, and apparently sele . If you, if you remember this, somebody alerted me to this coincidence. I didn't clip this slide. But if you folks, if you remember, there was the drawer that Epstein, that that was taken out of Epstein's residence . And there were all the CDs in the drawer. And one of the CDs said, Salina <affirmative> AV photo shoot, spelled exactly like that. Selena C E L I N a photo shoot in Epstein's drawer. This family and Eva Anderson calls, Jeffrey Epstein, uncle Jeff and Epstein has openly admitted that he wants to marry Selena . She was 19 at the time back in 2014, the most bizarre stuff. Okay. So you have here now little activity back in court, after three hours of radio silence from the Maxwell jury, lawyer, Bobby stern Heim returned to the defense table. Prosecutors are there too. Jurors come back. We get to note about David Rogers already talked about that. Now judge, Nathan is saying who , I don't know what time today, the jury wishes to deliberate to you this evening. I assume we'll get a note and we'll have to wait for that. If they're not done today, I'll consider extending deliberations into tomorrow for at least some period of time. Some period of time inner city says, well, Maxwell lawyer, Bobby stern Heim takes the , uh , stands up and says , uh , your honor. Yep . Not sure what the jurors are thinking. I think this jury has a mind of its own. They declined to deliberate last Thursday. They wanted the day off before Christmas. And now they're here asking for highlighters. So I'm not real sure what's going on. Nathan says, think about indication of at least some extension of hours tomorrow. If they have not completed the task. So you see what this judge is saying, she's gonna give 'em the old nudge roof she's gonna give 'em the old little , uh , finger in the back and say, Hey, get to business in there. Inner city is saying that the idea seems to be, if the jury doesn't decide today, Nathan might tell or encourage them to stay past 5:00 PM tomorrow. Okay ? You're not going home. Nope. Go back in there. Now inner city says a cynic might say in a hurry to get to the second circuit there. Judgey P <laugh> , judge Allison , Nathan of course had her confirmation hearings in front of the Senate judiciary committee. And she's just kind of jumping out of her seat to get up there to the second circuit. She's you know , the jurors are like, you know, really delaying this thing. Will you make a decision already? I'm tired of this district court, this places a dump. Can't wait to get to that court of appeals or I'll have some real power to wreck this country. <laugh> not that she's gonna do that all due respect to the court. All right , we have , uh , inner city press. As you can see, saying that there are other methods now to compel the jurors, to make a decision, make a decision so that they can resolve this case. What's one potential thing that they can shove in their arsenal. The Allen charge, what is the Allen charge? This is something that exists in federal court. Doesn't exist in many state courts, but it is interesting. Let's take a look at what this little legal maneuver is. In other words, the judge has this tool in her toolbox to go in there and you know, kind of those jurors get to work. A lot of state courts don't have this, this came out of a United States Supreme court case back in 1896, long time ago, among other things that approved the years of a , a use of a very specific jury instruction that is intended to prevent a hung jury by encouraging juries jurors in the might to reconsider. All right ? So like if this continues on, this may be a tool, a mechanism that the judge can use in this case, the Supreme court affirmed Allen's murder conviction. After having vacated his prior to convictions for the same crime, such an instruction became known as the Al in charge. It's given when, after deliberation a jury reports that it is deadlock and it's unable to decide, cause this is used to dislodge jurors from entrance positions. The Allen charge sometimes refer to as the dynamite charge or the hammer charge. We're gonna read what it says. Now this is applicable to federal court. Supreme court has said that this is its the power of this emanates from its supervisory power over the , under the federal courts. So state courts can do what they want. Half the state courts don't allow this to happen. They prohibit the Allen charges on state law grounds. Why would the states do that? Well, remember the states can't go beneath the constitution, right? The constitution sort of sets a baseline, supposed to the feds have wrecked that, but it's supposed to set a baseline. You're supposed to have freedom of speech and any law that drops beneath that that says, well, we're gonna give you like 80% free speech. No that drops below the standard. But if like a state, if a state wanted to pass a law that protects freedom of speech, even more, whatever that would look like, or if they want to protect guns even more than what the feds allow, then they can actually raise that standard, right? They can provide more protections as long as they're not encroaching on a constitutional protection. They're allowed to do that here. What the states are saying is that in this case, a judge coming in there and urging the jurors to make a decision or else is problematic. That's a little bit coercive. It's a little bit acting with duress. It's impeding a person's right to a fair trial. And so the states can say, well, we're gonna protect that a little bit more Supreme court said under supervisory power, federal courts, you're allowed to do this thing. But the state said we don't like that. We think that that kind of wrecks people's right to a fair trial. It sort of impedes due process to some degree. And so we're gonna protect due process a little bit more. We're gonna raise that standard up. And that's what you're seeing here. So Arizona is one of these states that doesn't allow these things. Your state is probably on that list also, but here is what that says. So again, what could this beef used for this could be used for in the event Golin Maxwell. If the jurors cannot come to a decision, this has been used in the past, okay . This has been something that is called an Allen charge. It has been sent to the jurors and the jurors, you know, do with it, what they will. So this is what potentially judge Allison , Nathan could be saying to the jurors. If they a do not resolve this case, soon members of the jury, I'm going to ask that you continue your deliberations in an effort to reach agreement upon a verdict and dispose of this case I have a few additional comments I would like for you to consider as you do. So this is an important case. This trial has been in time , effort , money , and emotional strain of both the defense and the prosecution. If you should fail to agree upon a verdict, the case will be left open, and may have to be tried again. Obviously another trial would only serve to increase the cost to both sides. And there is no reason to believe that the case can be tried again by either side, any better or more exhaustively that it has been tried before you any future jury must be selected in the same manner and from the same sources as you were chosen. And there's no reason to believe that the case could ever be submitted to 12 men and women, more conscientious, more impartial, more competent to decide it or that more or clear evidence could be produced. If a substantial majority of your number are in favor of a conviction, those of you who disagree should reconsider whether your doubt is as reasonable one, since it appears to make no effective impress upon the minds of the others. On the other hand, if a majority or even a lesser number of you are in favor of an acquital, the rest of you should ask yourselves again and most thoughtfully, whether you should accept the weight and the sufficiency of the evidence, which fails to convince your fellow jurors beyond a reasonable doubt. <affirmative> remember at all times that no juror is expected to give up an honest belief. He or she may have as to the weight or the effect of the evidence, but after full deliberation and consideration of the evidence in this case, it is your duty to agree upon a verdict if you can do. So. You must also remember that if the evidence in this case fails to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defense should have your unanimous verdict of not guilty. You may be as leisurely in your deliberations as the occasion may require and should take all the time, which you may feel is necessary. I will now ask you once again to retire and continue your deliberations with these additional comments in mind, to be applied, of course, conjunction with all the other instructions I have previously given to you. And you're a juror and you take that and you have to do something with that. You're sitting there having a conversation with your fellow jurors. You're in the minority. It's a, it's a 80 20 split. A handful of people are sitting there saying, I believe that there is reasonable doubt here. They have not proven their case. And you get this letter from the judge and the other 80% of the jurors are reading this. And they're saying, did you see what this judge just told? Do ? She just said, reconsider your opinion there, buddy. Why can you not see? What's so obvious to us. There's 80% of us over here on this side. Look again, and come on , board reconsider this. There's not gonna be any new evidence. It's not gonna be presented any better. And if it's an acquital, we're gonna have to come do this all over again, not us, but you get the point. So if you're a defense attorney and you're saying that you're going, whoa, that sounds kind of coercive. It sounds kind of like you're encouraging people to abandon their principles and just come to a conclusion for the sake of coming to a conclusion. Many people might argue and say, that's reasonable doubt right there. Hello. If you have an 80 20 split, if you have even one person that can't get behind the weight of the evidence, kind of sounds like reasonable doubt to this defense lawyer, doesn't it? Yeah. They were not able to get a unanimous verdict, but this allows them to just go and nudge it a little bit further. And in practice, how does this always play out towards convictions? Obviously now in state courts, a lot of states have rejected this rightfully so. Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Dakota, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania at Rhode Island, Tennessee, Wisconsin, Wyoming. If you didn't hear your name on that list, you very likely have Allen charges or something similar, a state court analog in your state. And so those are the updates on the Glenn Maxwell case and her birthday celebration. Let's see what you have to say about this and more over@watchingthewatchersdotlocals.com . We had a super chat come in over on YouTube. Rich cook is here, says, Rob, you are a beautiful man. Rich. I think the same about you. And you have a , you have a hell of a name too. Rich cook . Love it . Beautiful. All right , let's see what else we've got watching the watchers.coles.com . Oh, let's check in . Check in on the polls. Yes. Here we go. Oh , we're seeing a clear pattern. Now on the poll form, we're seeing , uh , 359 responses. We've got 81%, not guilty, all counts. Wow. Not guilty. All counts. And that's after the fact that's after we've gone through a lot of this. So we've got 10% say split verdict. We've got hung jury 10% , uh , sorry. 2%, 2.8%, 10 people 3% say hung jury. And then we've got guilty. All counts. All remaining victims. I put all remaining victims in there. 6%. Wow . Not guilty. All can <laugh> . Oh my goodness. Yeah, I think that's probably right. Uh , isn't that funny? It's not really that funny. All right . Let's see what some questions are , uh , over from watching the watchers.locals.com. Sergeant Bob is here says , uh, no matter what the verdict, I hope she comes out a lot more humble from Sergeant also says good meatloaf is not to be shunned. I love meatloaf. I think it's amazing. <laugh> but , but maybe I'm just a simpleton. I don't know. Sergeant Bob says, I think the jury knows she is dirty. They're just trying to reach beyond a reasonable doubt too bad officers. Chauvin's jury did not. So apply themselves. Yeah. They were out for what was that ? Like three days. It's quick. He was quick. If I remember the gender policer here said , uh , I have heard various commentators referring to judge , uh , intermittently as a woman, sometimes as a man. Do you have a confirmation as to what gender sex judge Nathan is? I actually don't have any confirmation to that now . I , I don't have formal confirmation for this. It's complicated. I mean, it's really hard. I, I think it's feminine, gendered, but I can't, I don't know. I mean, I really don't know. And it's such a sensitive topic these days that I'm too afraid to even spa or really even continue talking about it because I don't know what happens if you talk about, I think something might come out of the ceiling and laser be me or something. Are we there yet? I'm not sure if we're there yet, but I don't know. I don't know what it is. So use your best judgment on that. I can't, I can't help. <laugh> monster one says, remember just like the Epstein, just like Epstein the jury didn't hang itself. <laugh> it's not a hung jury. Uh , the jury would never hang themselves. It's probably the MOSAD . I don't know who did it. We have monster one says the meme next year will bely Maxwell. Didn't die of co just like so yeah, we got all of 21 was Epstein. Didn't kill himself next year. It'll be Maxwell. Didn't die . COVID Sergeant Bob says, Hey, happy to be in Arizona. Where masks are mostly optional. We're grateful that you're here. Sergeant Bob, we have monster one with another one says, Rob, the jury wants those supplies to map out how Epstein didn't kill himself. <laugh> I think that's the topic of the show. Sergeant it's the Sergeant Bob and monster one show SA , which I love. Keep it coming. Folks says the most important case in my career was saving two 14 year olds from prostitution, my partner and I put together a rock solid case, which the detectives wanted to just kiss off resulting in the bad guy, doing a plea and going off to the big house for a few years, chapter 12, that's in Sergeant Bob's book, which we're gonna talk about. I think even a good defense lawyer would have encouraged taking the plate. I think he has a PD. Yeah. So that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That's a tough case. Rock solid case. Big house for a few . Yeah, look. Yep . Look, plea deals are, are very common in the criminal justice system . We encourage them when they're a benefit. Okay ? You have to it's just like anything in life. You have to weigh your risks versus reward your cost versus benefit your exposure at trial. If you take this case to trial and lose what happens, those consequences are often catastrophic. They're intended to be that way so that when you do get convicted or let me say this they're , they're created as disincentives for you to go to trial. They can stack up so many charges that you basically have no option, but to take a plea deal because you'd have to be a lunatic to go to trial because there are so many charges and the consequences are so severe lose one. You're going away for a long time and they give you a smoke and plea deal. So even people who are like, I , I am 100% innocent. I did not do anything. The , the exposure that they face versus the benefits that are offered under the plea deal, innocent people plead guilty all the time in this country. That's a fact hate to say it. Mo Molly pop says, I want to know if she has had, or currently has a relationship with Frances Sellers Collins. I'm not sure who that is. I don't know that. Who the heck is this person? All right . This is an American physician geneticist. This is over from Wikipedia. Uh, donate, donate to Wikipedia Francis sellers. Collin . Ooh , this guy. What? The ins ? The NIH. This guy <laugh> yeah , this guy. Doesn't he play an instrument and sing about the COVID vaccines somewhere. So that was interesting. So that's for Molly pop Inc is wondering if, I think if Maxwell has a relationship with the singing vaccine salesman, I don't know. It's a good question, Molly. Pop . I don't know about that one. Very, very good question. Sergeant Bob enticement is a very low bar says, sorry. I'm on a roll today. Keep it going. Sergeant pop . There's nobody else asking anything. So it's it's you and me, baby. Let's go. Nadler's dirty. Diaper is here. Oh , it's been a long time. He's back says I am being selfish, but I hope Golin is found not guilty so I can maybe have a chance with her. <laugh> due to December having both Hanukkah and Christmas, I have topped 42.5 pounds. Despite leakage. Glenn May be my savior. That's Nadler's dirty diaper folks, 42 and a half pounds coming outta Jerry Nadler's diaper. Somebody needs to change him. I mean, you know, normally I get mad when I see this because it's our constitution. That's at stake here. This is the us government. This is Congress. This is an elected house representative, Jerry Nadler, who is literally wandering around Congress with a 42 and a half pound diaper dragging out of his rear. And if you think I'm making this up, if you're like Rob, you're being facetious, have you seen him walk, just go up and get a video, look up any Jerry Nadler video. And you're gonna see him wad around , uh , back then, you know, when these videos are recorded, he's probably under 25 pounds back then of baggage excrement. But now, I mean, I , you know, it's , it's, we're almost 20, 22. He's gonna be over 50 pounds soon. He's gonna be over 50 pounds folks, 50 pounds walking around con it's unbelievable. Well, I , I , I don't even know what to say. Uh , Sergeant Bob says Palm beach is another world. If you wanna see how the 1% lived , take a walk through the breakers hotel in the season, tell the retired, retired cop at the gate that you're going for a snack or a coffee, unless you look sketchy, he will let you park. That's from Sergeant Bob. I don't think I've ever been to that. I've been all over Florida. I used to, to be a part of this coaching group that, that had conferences there all the time. So I used to go back there a lot, but , uh, I don't think I've actually gone and poked around Palm beach for some reason , uh , jurors next request, a trip to the island for research purposes. <laugh> yeah, they wanna just go take a look, you know , uh, mojitos my ties , all that stuff on the beach. Good stuff. Leafy bug says, Hey Rob, hope you had a great Christmas. You too leafy. Do you , uh , jurors and federal courts get paid to receive any of allowance. I imagine different jurisdictions have different rules about this. Yeah. So they'll get, they'll get compensated for it. And then they can submit receipts and things like that for the time that , uh , for, for what they've been put out on. So we actually saw it in this case, one of the juror , one of the jurors submitted his parking receipts over to the judge and judge Allison Nathan said, okay, give it to somebody else. And she issued a formal order about this and don't send your receipts to me. Don't give me your parking tickets. Okay. Give 'em to somebody else. And then they said, no , oh no, no. She said, give them the receipts. He said he wanted to be compensated. And she said, here's an order show. 'em the receipts they'll reimburse you. So yeah, they get compensated, but it's you, know's what , what's it worth? We have, well, maybe in this case, the, after the post-trial publicity would be worth a lot monster, one says, do you think that Epstein twin torpedoed, Matt ? You know, I don't know, man. He had remotes on those things. When you have remotes, you don't have to have a physical connection to the torpedo. And so you can get very sneaky with those things. You know, you can just turn 'em on turn 'em off and you can be in a different room. I , I would presume. I think that's why they got the remotes. I don't really, I'm not familiar with that technology, but it is an interesting question. Monster one also says, I don't think your analogy of the judge fingering the jury to hurry them up is appropriate in this case , uh , monster one says off topic , but did you see the video of the guy getting Biden to say, I agree, let's go Brandon. It was the greatest Christmas gift ever. So I did see it. I didn't spend much time on that story. Uh, stuff like that makes me cringe so hard. That it's actually hard for me to watch. Now, the thing I did watch it, of course the thing that is , uh, so interesting about that case to me is not what the guy said or, or anything other than the fact that it just shows you how far God Joe Biden is, man. He is just not even in the realm of coherence because his face didn't even move. That was, what's so fun about that. Those body language guys should really dig in on this one, Jill Biden, you can see her face, just , uh , like you can see the physical pain as she realized what's happening. Cuz she got it. Cuz her brain is still functioning. There are neurons in there that still work one triggers and connects to another one. And there's thoughts that move around in there. So as soon as she heard that word, let's go , Brandon, her face reacted like a normal human, but Joe Biden didn't do that. Poor Joe Biden. He's just like, yeah, let's go in . Cuz he has no idea where he is or what's happening or what's going on in the world around him. And I feel bad for people like that. You know? I just feel, I feel bad for the poor guy. It's like, come on, can you just retire him already? There's nothing left there. So , uh, yeah, sad state of affairs, but goodness , uh , VICA says deny the juror's hot pockets until they reach a decision. That's a good solution. Yeah. All the snack breaks, they got too many snack breaks. Every time judge Nathan put him on a, your snacks are here. Children, take your crayons, take your coloring menu, get your apples and your peanut butter and go on your break . Smart people here from the Southern district of New York need to attend a business. So they got all these snacks and they got all cozy and now they want highlighters and post-it notes. What kind of world is this? Probably a bunch of millennials. VCA says, I wonder how many of them think this whole trial is bunk ? Well, maybe not that much. I mean they're, they're working hard back there with their highlighters. We <laugh> , we have news now says if it is a guilty verdict on some and a hung jury on the others, what do you think the chances are of a retrial on those charges? Think the prosecutor will just call it a win. Oh , it's a good question news now. Uh, probably, I mean probably if they lose on this thing, I think they'll come out with a little stupid statement. Well, you know, justice was not done. We're gonna continue to vigorously investigate this case. We're gonna look into all ends, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, then nothing. It'll all just fi fizzle out news now says I wrap my meatloaf in bacon. Amazing. Somehow <laugh> uh, I was , I was just thinking about, you know, the language that we're using here during this trial. I wrap my meatloaf in bacon. That's amazing news. Now. He says it is amazing. Somehow I doubt Maxwell got good meatloaf. I have never had good cafeteria meatloaf. That's probably also true cafeteria meatloaf or any of the things that are in the frozen dishes. Those are all garbage. You need somebody who knows what they're doing. Like my mother who is extremely competent in the kitchen, the anti is prime also says, did I hear Sergeant Bob ticed people to a bar I'm in. There you go. <laugh> I don't know that I read that, but I'm sure he, he could accommodate enticing a happy hour monster. One says, Rob, did you have a good Christmas? I got my nephews, a foosball table and air hockey. Got my dad a little freezer for his deer meat. It's about giving for me. I did monster one, got some nice family time in, you know, holidays, holidays are different now. Uh , my family has, you know, lost somebody who was integral to our family. And so holidays are different. Holidays are still kind of in that hard territory a little bit. And everybody musters their way through it. But things that things have changed pretty dramatically, but we do our best. You, you know, and we still connect as families as a family and support one another. And so it's, you know, it it's like bittersweet to some degree. It's, it's a lot of memories, a lot of feelings, a lot of emotion, but we did have a good Christmas because you remember what you have and you remember what's important to you. And so we got to really connect this holiday season, but it , but, but it was a very nice Christmas. It was very , uh, very quiet. I would say a , a lot more quiet than , uh , than some of the prior years, but it was good. So we have , that was from monster one. Thanks for asking monster one. Hope yours was very good as well. We have monster. One says no other comment . No, the other commentator was wrong. The next request is, oh , I'm not even gonna read that. Cuz I might vomit in my mouth PTK 1 0 1 says HIRA , I know this may be off topic, but I sent you an email with respect to a case in New York or a hospital was sued because they refused to administer. I am to a COVID patient. If you have time to take a look at it, I would be very appreciative. So were they refused? Okay. Let me take a look at that PTK 1 0 1 . I don't remember that being in my inbox if it's not too much trouble, if you could resend that, that would be very helpful because I don't think that's in my inbox currently. And I don't remember what I did with that. Leafy bug says modern torpedoes can be dangerous. Check out the headline on this article. I can't even read that leafy bug hacked plug controlled anywhere. Love toy hacked, plug controlled anywhere. Love toy, not it's from Newsweek, which is like a mainstream site, but I'm not clicking that no way. Uh , news now says I was actually disappointed in the let's go Brandon Guy . His daughter is calling Nora to talk to Santa. He and his daughter have an amazing conversation with the president as clueless as he is. He took the time to talk to them and this guy ends it like that. Yeah. You know, I heard that. So I didn't watch the full thing. Like I said, I really, you know, stuff, stuff that is like people getting overly hurt or overly embarrassed. It , it , I , I can't watch it. I , I don't , I don't like to see people face planting. You know, it's just not, it's not my thing. I understand. It's a joke. I don't think it was even necessarily in good taste. I did not watch the full thing, but I , I , I think there is still something that's very illustrative that comes out of this, that our president is not there. So you , you know, there is still something to take away from it. We have <laugh> we have chairman says, can the, can they eliminate one juror every hour until there's no verdict, squid game style, red light <laugh> . So that's from chairman. Yeah. It's sort of like a ever , you know, you actually, you , you make a decision or your family starts to , uh, get voted off somewhere. Sergeant pop says no, do not retire sleepy, Joe . We then get the cackling com lab . Yeah, that's true. I mean, we're just in trouble, all around the whole line cuz who's next Pelosi? Uh , not good. Chairman says the best advice would be don't let your meat loaf. Yes. And wrap it with bacon. According to news now , and we have another one from news now says Joe and Jill Biden go to a restaurant. Jill tells the waiter, I will take a steak . Cut medium. Well waiter asked, what about your vegetable? Jill says, oh, he's gonna have the same. <laugh> do you get it? Joe Biden is the vegetable. She should have said, oh, asparagus or mashed potatoes, green beans. But she said, oh, he's gonna have a steak also. No, no, no, no , no. I meant what did you want to eat? Not about your vegetable husband. Who's the president. Oh, in that case I'll have the asparagus. He'll have a stake . <laugh> okay . Oh this show, man. All right . We have another one from monster one. And then we're gonna wrap it up outta here. We've got monster. One says, do you think Biden's people legitimately have him convinced that let's go? Brandon is in support of him. I have no sympathy for Biden at all, but the dude threatened people and talk to all kinds of craps. So screw him . <laugh> now , listen, listen. I'm not gonna defend him. I'm just, you know, look the whole, the whole thing. I think it's it's illustrative in the idea that it , it shows us just how far gone he is or, I mean, in the alternative how disconnected he is from reality. I mean, this has been a meme that has been everywhere for like a month, two months. I , I don't know how long it's been a long time and that one either he doesn't or stand it, meaning he hasn't been told meaning he's so far disconnected from reality. That that would be, I would say problematic. Okay . Put Trump in that position. If , if , if somebody's on the plane on a phone call with Donald Trump and they said something like that, he would dunk on him right back. Right. Probably as fast or faster than most of us would. Cuz he's quick like that. And he's got a mouth on him and I'm not saying that that is necessarily a presidential prerequisite either, but yet at least gotta be competent enough to know when somebody's dunking on you because he's expected to go over there and have conversations with Putin and Z and all of the other world leaders around the country , the , the , the planet. And if he can't even handle himself in a telephone conversation on Christmas, well doesn't bode well for international relations and negotiations throughout the rest of the globe. As far as I know. All right . And so we had a super chat come in from Dr. Fry says a pair of woo Sox . Happy Christmas, Rob happy. Mr . You Dr . Fries . Thank you for that. And that my friends is it for us for the day ? Nope . We got two more questions from local Sergeant Bob says, do not remember enticing to a bar, but sounds like a plan. Miss lucky . Well chaperone. If you're lucky, I'm not sure that that I'm not sure where vent kiss is from. Actually I , the headline says , uh , I'm not gonna read that. Okay. And that is it for us for the day. My friends. I wanna thank you for being a part of the show, being a part of our lovely community over@watchingthewatchersdotlocals.com big welcomes to a couple new people who signed up. Gotcha . Good is here. We also have Jim 2008 . Welcome Jim. We also had Falcon us N Y yeah . Well we have re not R WC . We've got Chuck David mark on w Shindo nosy, Texas Rosie , TAs, mom , cookie monster two . We have AJ DHA . MoPOP Inc guitar . Terry and D J Westworld is here. Equestrian girl, Richie, DC , red Jersey, Nikki dragon, things and stuff. We've got Don 1 0 7. The Vaz Jimmy w big brother bites, Kimmy CA three, Kevin ay Anar 24 queen of Tennessee re Lee music box lady and Bry are all in the house. And that my friends is it for the show. We are gonna be back here tomorrow to do it all again. We're gonna see if there's anything to talk about in the Maxwell case. Maybe those jurors have concocted some very nice origami with nice colors and posted notes and highlighters. We'll see . But if there's a verdict, we'll cover it. If not, there's probably a lot more else that we can talk about. If you missed, I posted a governor Whitmer plot, they filed a , a , the defense lawyers in that case filed a motion to dismiss those charges. It's a very juicy motion. So if you haven't seen that, make sure you poke around and check that video out. Otherwise, my friends that is it for us for the day Andrew Richardson, doesn't like my new shirt. You don't like it. Andrew. It's very it's it's it's purple. Well I'll , I'll change it tomorrow for you, Andrew. I , I promise I'll change it. It will be a different shirt tomorrow that I can guarantee and that my friends is it for us for the day. Everybody have a tremendous evening sleep very well. I will see you right back here tomorrow. Bye-bye.