Watching the Watchers with Robert Gruler Esq.

Ghislaine Maxwell Trial Day 7: “Carolyn” on Massages, Epstein’s NYC Townhouse Exhibits

December 08, 2021 Robert Gruler Esq.
Watching the Watchers with Robert Gruler Esq.
Ghislaine Maxwell Trial Day 7: “Carolyn” on Massages, Epstein’s NYC Townhouse Exhibits
Show Notes Transcript

Day SEVEN of the Ghislaine Maxwell trial continues. The government is still presenting its case-in-chief. We review the day’s trial activity and other Epstein/Maxwell news, including:

🔹 Ghislaine Maxwell’s Brother Max addresses the media, begging Attorney General Merrick Garland for help.
🔹 New exhibits (with redactions) released showing the inside of Epstein’s Palm Beach mansion from yesterday’s testimony.
🔹 FBI Special Agent Kimberly Meder testifies and details photographs from the Epstein raid.
🔹 Forensic Analyst and FBI Agent Stephen Flatley testified about a hard drive he found during the Epstein raid.
🔹 Pictures of Epstein’s CREEPY Massage Room with highly redacted artwork hanging from the walls.
🔹 “Carolyn”, Maxwell’s second pseudo anonymous victim, takes the stand.
🔹 Prosecutor Comey discusses the Epstein massages with “Carolyn” with Epstein and Maxwell.
🔹 Defense lawyer Jeffrey Pagliuca cross-examines “Carolyn”.
🔹 Your comments and questions!

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Speaker 1:

Hello, my friends. And welcome back to yet. Another episode of watching the Watchers live. My name is Robert grr . I am a criminal defense attorney here at the R and R law group. We're located in Scottsdale, Arizona. And today we're talking about Glenn Maxwell . She's in trial day seven. Very interesting testimony came out. We've got a lot to get to today. It's Tuesday day . So we've got a solid 90 minutes to spend on this and we're gonna dig into it. We're gonna start off with Maxwell's brother named max. He was out yesterday after trial wrapped up and he's sort of begging the media pleading to the media begging Merick Garland, the attorney general of the United States to step in and helpline. Maxwell's saying she's facing some pretty , uh , subhuman conditions and that this is something that should not be tolerated in a modern society. And so we're gonna listen to him. He goes on for about three minutes. We're gonna break that down into two clips and see what he's saying, because this is kind of the first time that we've heard from Maxwell's family and Isabella standing right next to him. They're on the side of the road. It's nighttime, it's dark in New York city, right after trial on day six. And so we're gonna catch up on that. We also have to catch up on some of those Palm beach exhibits that we heard about yesterday in day six in day six, we heard a lot of testimony from a number of different government witnesses, all telling us about the Palm beach mansion that was down in Florida, that was rated , uh, back in. I think this was back in. It doesn't matter. What it was back in the 1990s actually is when this was, we saw those photographs yesterday, we were looking at the green path, still walls and the , you know , all the interesting nineties, LCDs and TVs and surround sound systems and all of those. But in the testimony, there was conversation about artwork on the walls and different pictures showing very interesting things. A lot of it we didn't get to hear much detail about, but those pictures, those exhibits have now been made available. So we can look at them, of course not beyond the redaction. So we're gonna see some of these images, but we can't see what's been redacted, but you can't still understand what's happening here. Walls of redactions. So you can get a sense of what this room is for. So we've got a lot of pictures to get to. Then we're going to pick up with testimony that started today in day seven, we've got FBI special agent woman by the name of Kimberly Meder , M E D E R. And she's talking about a different rage . She was a part of in new. And so we're gonna sort of pivot from Florida up to New York. And we know that in the Epstein Maxwell case in this entire saga, the Palm beach residence was sort of the hub and the rest of these locations in , uh, little St James in New York city. And over in New Mexico, those were kind of the wheel. We had a hub and, and wheel and spoke model. And so this was the , the hub, but we spent our time in there earlier this week and last week. And so we're gonna pivot over to new New York and see what's going on with this townhouse. We have a lot more pictures there as well, because we're gonna hear from an FBI forensic analyst, somebody named Steven Flatley. Who's also gonna tell us about a hard drive that they found. And then the big, big testimony of the day is the second victim in the Galin Maxwell case woman going by the name of Caroline, Carol Caroline, C a R O L Y N. She's only using her first name. So it's a pseudonym. I'm sorry. It's actually her real name is my understanding, but she's not using her last name. So sort of a , a kind of half public testimony. And so we're gonna hear from her today, lot of testimony, basically the whole afternoon and a good portion of the morning was Carolyn . And so we're gonna check in with the usual , uh , reporters on this. We've got inner city , uh, well , we've got all their all , we'll get to all of them here in a minute. You'll see. Then we've got defense lawyer, Jeffrey UCA . Who's doing the cross examination of Carolyn . And so we've got a , just a ton to get into. If you wanna be a part of the show, the place to do that is [email protected] We've got a form over there. Looks just like, throw your name and your question. If you're a member, you get access to the form, we'll take your questions. We're also sharing clips of the show. So we're clipping these up. Jane has a clip we've got, Caroline's gonna have a clip. We've got Juan lessi has a clip and so on and so forth. And so if you want to be a part , uh , if you wanna share clips, then this is the , the , the place to do it, go to the Robert ruler clips to channel and share those away. All right , so it is day seven of the Glenn Maxwell trial. And as we usually do, let's check in and see who is coming into court as usual, the family here, we've got Isabelle Maxwell, we've got Kevin Maxwell, brother and sister of they arrive at court for day seven. This is a photograph over from Reuters . And so, as I mentioned at the opening, let's take a listen here to see what max has to say about this entire ordeal. His sister has been in custody, federal custody for a long period of time. And, you know, apparently probably one of his compadres Jeffrey Epstein was also in federal custody. Didn't turn out too well for him in there. And so he's highly interested to make sure that nothing happens to his sister, he's carrying a about her wellbeing. And so yesterday after day six, after we had a full day of court, we covered a lot of that in detail yesterday, they were out in front of the courthouse steps, and this is what they said. We've got one clip , uh , fr first we're gonna break this up into two clips, one here from , uh , max and Isabel talking about the conditions inside the prison. This is about ,

Speaker 2:

Uh , the at trial of our sister <inaudible> . Um , there are three things that we have asked the attorney general Eric Garland to intervene

Speaker 1:

Today. Mayor Carlan , us attorney general, very, very simple things

Speaker 2:

That we really shouldn't have to ask for . And the first is that he stops the abuse of the four point restraints. These are shackled, they're bind her wrists to her waist and her feet to her waist. And she is shackled in the moment that she leaves , uh , the metropolitan detention center until she arrives in the pending set here in the courthouse and reverse when she goes back to the detention center in evening and she's obliged, she could walk up and downstairs in the shackles and they hurt her . They heard in bruise she's didn't bled. And you really have to ask yourself in 2021, what on earth are they doing shackling a 59 year old woman in this way? Every day when she represents absolutely no threat to the community, that was agreed by the judge and by the prosecution and the various bail. The second thing that we've asked for is that she received food. It's a pretty basic thing that we all need every day . She's on trial for her life and she received no food on her . She received a boiled egg. She is lucky if it is not moldy, she receives a couple of pieces of bread, maybe a crack slice and a enough or an hour . And that is literally everything from six 30 in the morning to seven 30 at night when she gets back to the detention center.

Speaker 1:

All right . So you can see what he's dis discussing there. First of all, she's in these four point shackles. So she's got this waistband that's going around her waist and it is, you know , very tight. And it's basically, it's , it's acting as the center of gravity on her body and it's shackling her arms via chains to that waistband as well as her ankles. And so she is just basically sort of, you know , tied down, can't really move or do anything. And we saw actually, she's not going all that far. We , we reviewed a overview map from Google maps to the location, and she's, she's basically in the same complex, you know, she's not having to get on a bus and then, you know, travel 25 minutes from one part of the city back over to where the trial's happening. It's basically in the same justice complex, which is very convenient. And we talked about this as part of strategy, you know, where is the defense team setting up? Are they in a hotel? Do they have, you know, a big conference room? What's , what's their situation look like? Are they working out of a hotel conference room or do they have an office there? Bobby stern , Heim is in New York. Is she there at her home? Or does the government have home field advantage? And so we're talking about these conditions Maxwell, right in the middle of a trial, she's gotta keep her stamina up. You know, really nobody in this entire case, her attorney's included are gonna care about the out , come in this as much as her. And so she is going to be, you know, needing to keep her energy up. The family's concerned about it. She's getting moldy eggs in there on top of this. So she's completely shackled. Uh , she's a 59 year old woman. She's not gonna be, you know, escaping or , or running a , a away or anything like that. So we don't need to be treating her like this it's 2021 . What's the, and so you can see where, you know , sort of where he's going with this, they've been constantly complaining about Maxwell's conditions. And he's now asking pleading with attorney general, Merick Garland , get out there and , uh , do something about these inhumane conditions. Now, I actually agree with him, by the way, you know, I don't want anybody to be treated like a subhuman. I don't want anybody getting moldy eggs. I don't want anybody in custody to be abused, to be, you know , uh , you know, assaulted, to be killed, to be molested in any way in, in custody, because that's not the penalty. Okay . GoLine Maxwell, whatever you think of her. And I think a lot about her. She is still innocent at this moment. Sorry to tell you that folks, she is still innocent. She has not been convicted. She has not been proven, guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Nothing has happened. She has not pled guilty. So she is still innocent. And so until she is, is convicted, the penalties should not, you know, cruel and unusual treatment should not happen at any stage in the case pre-con conviction or post-conviction. But at this moment we gotta hold the line. If you know, if you're gonna allow the government to treat Maxwell like garbage, guess what happens, everybody else gets treated like garbage at some point. And before you know it, it's your son, it's your daughter. And I've seen it happen too many times. So the , the , the , the standard it is as a just insane society, no cruel and unusual punishment, no treatment like this now, moldy eggs and all that stuff, right? That's, that's , that's a big no-no on the other hand. Now I can see people saying, well, hold on a minute, Rob, she's in these shackles because we don't want Maad agents to drop down and parachute out helicopters and zip line her right out there. We don't want, you know , special forces to open up a ground , a hole in the subway ground and, and sunk sink her in there and shoot her off in a, you know , bullet train. That's why, that's why it's so such high security, it's high security so that she doesn't break out, latch out of her chain and shackles, grab a gun and shoot herself, or grab a knife and slit her throat or do something that is very dangerous, right? It's, it's a security reason. So you've gotta balance these interests. On the one hand, treating somebody like a human on the other hand, you know, making sure that she is not , uh , helicoptered out of the detention facility. So we have one more clip from max .

Speaker 2:

So we don't understand how it is possible that everybody washes their hands at that problem. The judge says, it's not her problem, even though it's happening in her court , the Marshall service say it's not their problem . They blame the bureau of prisons. The bureau of prison says it's not their problem because she's off . So the only person who can make a difference and who is responsible for is Mary God , the attorney general, because the department of justice is responsible for the Marshall service is responsible for the bureau of prisons. And it's responsible for the fair administration of justice. That's what it's about. And so we've simply asked him to organize that the bureau of prisons gives her a food pass every day , something nutritious and not a mob oil there . And we don't see, we don't see why that doesn't has to be asked . And the third thing that we've we've requested is that she be allowed access to counts when the court has risen. Right ? So what happens at the moment is at the end of the day, she is whisked off back to the pending cell, back to the vehicle , back in shackles, driven to the detention center . And sometimes she waits 90 minutes in shackles before she gets back in, in to the facility. What we're asking for is 30 minutes every day , when she can speak to council , when the jury are not present, it's a pretty, again, a pretty basic ride of being able to consult outside the actual court city . So those are the three things that we've asked the buck stops with Mary . He has to make a very simple

Speaker 1:

Decision . Okay. Do you think that Merick Garland and the attorney general , uh , of the United States, the office of that office , uh , with the Biden administration is going to intervene on behalf of gal Maxwell. Probably not nice effort there, max, but unlikely that that's going to happen, but you can still see what he's talking about. He's pointing, he's pointing out something that is accurate. That's actually true. When you try to have a problem in the criminal justice system, everybody points fingers at everybody else, bureau of prisons. No , it's not our problem. Talk to the prosecutor, not our problem. Talk to the sheriff, not our problem. Talk to the pro , you know, and around and around you go. And it is, is true. You know, you know , there are, there are really bad conditions in some of these places and it is appropriate for a , a , a defendant in the middle of a trial to have access to counsel. So what he's complaining about here is legitimate, right? These are things that I would be complaining about too, as a defense attorney. And if my client were being treated this way, know if fans or butts about it, even if it were Glenn Maxwell or Jeffrey Epstein you. Yes, I know , but they deserve a defense. The presumption of innocence is stronger than any, you know, initial gut feelings that anybody might have. That's why we have it. It's a sacred thing in this country, and we're not gonna just dump all over it because it happens to be Maxwell. So we've got max and Isabella out there making their pitch. Now a lot of the rest of this is very instant dental. Yes. She's gonna be in shackles. It's just protocol. It's just how it goes. She's not gonna get any special privileges on that one. She's also not gonna get a four course meal. Okay . She's not a billionaire living in, you know, the little St James anymore. This is now prison. It's not gonna be full of luxuries. No more massages there. Go . And if you have to sit there in 90 minutes in handcuffs, that's just life now. Sorry. Right. That's just how these things go. And so you're weighing, you're weighing, you know, the pros and cons of this, because if you let her out, if you give her a bunch of these, you know, lax conditions, we don't want anything to happen to her because we know what happened with Epstein. When those knuckleheads in this same stinking facility botched at the last time around. All right . So we've got an update on that. We have to clean up a little bit more from yesterday. Remember that we talked about a lot of these exhibits. Remember yesterday we saw exhibit two 30. It was this photograph. And we spent a little bit of time on it. And yesterday this is all we saw. And our comments back then were, oh, we got some magazines on the floor over here. We've got some photographs over here, but we can't really zoom in and see much of anything. But today we've got some new photographs. And so we can zoom in and recall before we got in, on this before , as this testimony was sort of , uh , being presented yesterday, they're , they're zooming in, they're talking about this, you know, well here , you know , this is a picture of this area. And then I got closer and I took even more pictures and they were describing each one of these photographs. So I'm gonna click over here in a minute, but you can see what they're about to redact. So this red thing, we can't see what that is. That's gonna be redacted. We see another, as we zoom in on this, we're gonna see both of these photographs have been redacted. Both of these are cut out . We're are going to notice that , uh, the , this photo right here is out and this photo here, as well as maybe this photograph, and it looks like , uh , some photographs over here. All right . So now that you can see let's zoom in and take a look at what has been redacted. Boom, there it is. So as we zoom in, you can see a whole lot of redactions and we don't really know what each one of these are, but you know, it's a lot there. And , and a lot of this, the reason why these things are being redacted, let's just highlight, you know, here's one here in red, we've got three photographs here, small, medium, and , and , uh , big. And then we've got this shelf, we've got a middle shelf and a bottom shelf, another one to the left of the lamp, another one top left up here. And then we've got this image that was redacted. So what are these, you know, who are these people ? Are these people that we don't want to know about are these , uh , I image are these famous people that we can identify that were protecting their privacy? Are these overly , uh , provocative images of, of , you know, bodies and, and females or, or underage people are these, you know , say sensitive in that way? Or are these people it's cl over it's Clinton back there behind one of those things, Hillary is she, you know , behind one of those photographs, we don't know, but we can walk around and we can see this. We can zoom in just a little bit closer. You see this photograph looks like it was over here, maybe. Yeah. Right there. And then we zoom in around that lamp and we can zoom what it's Jeffrey on an airplane and looks like there may be a young person or somebody sitting in his lap. Uhoh. And so they black that out. Sounds like. So, you know, like the jurors can't see that it's overly suggestive, this one's blacked out. We also have a little bit of a safe with a camera. It looks like right here and another redacted photo top. So we continue around the rest of the Palm beach residence . We can see another redacted photo here. So this was on a desk. We see a model of an airplane. We see another photograph looks like royalty, or somebody's visiting with somebody, an old phone. This is exhibit two eighty five R. And it's the desk of it looks like, go in Maxwell. You can see her name right there. It's her notepad. It's her itinerary got some key HES here in a little key basket. We got a picture of somebody on a horse, might be her don't know, but we got a photograph right there in the middle that is highly redacted. So can't see any of that. As we work our way down the hall, similar situation, another photograph of Epstein sitting next to somebody don't know who that is right on the corner, proud to be with somebody member or , you know, remembering that relationship. Who is that? Is that a young person or is that a famous person? Don't know another redaction right here in the middle of this front and center. You can't really get any information from anywhere else. Cuz these other photographs are all tilted. They've got glare. You can't see anything. This photographs innocent looks like a beach or an aerial photograph. Here's somebody on a raft in a water. So not nothing really to, to write home about. So those were the exhibits that came out from yesterday's testimony. But you can see, this is why it's so frustrating because we're trying to analyze this and everything's redacted, but we are only getting started because this is where we end with the Palm beach residence . And we're gonna transition over into New York and that it has a whole additional slew of exhibits that are , uh, creepy to say the least . So we'll get there in a minute, but let's start with what happened this morning in court Glenn Maxwell , trial day seven, we've got a little bit of a rub that popped up when Jane was out there speaking with other witnesses. You remember Jane Jane was the first accuser that spoke at this trial. And Jane had a conversation with somebody else outside of the purview of the court. Uhoh New York post reported about this. We have the photograph from Jane. This is when it was when Jane testified. I think it was day one. I mean, it was very early on in the case. And so Ben fewer hard and Tamir Lapin , they reported on this. They said Jane, the first accuser who testified at trial, spoke to another witness and called one of Maxwell's defense attorney, unex expletive uhoh and this is a family show. So what's the word? Well , it rhymes with the word front Jane called go's your , a word that rhymes with front said that learning is a real front. I'll tell you that we learned about this in court Tuesday morning today, the issue is being raised by defense attorney, Laura Menninger, who got called to that front. I'm sure she brought it up before the jury was brought into the courtroom. Prosecutors told the defense team that there was a call between Jane and brother Brian , presumably going by a pseudonym as well. And they were made aware about it early on Tuesday. Jane told Brian that when she was testifying, she was shown in exhibit from the interlock in arts camp during her testimony. And when they were having that conversation, Jane said that lady's a real front. This is what pro for the government. Allison Moe told the court. So Laura Menninger, the defense said, all right , judge, listen, look, you know, call me whatever she wants. That's fine. Part of my concern is that those are the two things that Brian volunteered to us. That's what he told us. They talked about. We don't know what actually happened in this conversation though says Laura Menninger. Now, why is this a problem? So what if Jane goes and has a conversation with her brother, Brian ? Well, it turns out Brian might come in and testify. And why is that a problem? Well , because we have an issue of the sequestration of witnesses. We have the exclusionary principle of the witnesses. We can take a look at the federal rules of evidence. For example says at a party's request, the court must order witnesses excluded so that they cannot hear other witnesses testimony or the court may do so on its own. There are certain exceptions to this. Obviously, people who are party to the case, they can't be thrown out of the case. But what this rule says is that if you've got a bunch of witnesses, testifying, you can exclude witnesses from listening to the other witnesses. Why might you want to do that? So that if you have two witnesses who are colluding with one another, that one can't just sit in the courtroom, listen to what somebody said and just mirror their testimony. So for example, in this case, if Brian's gonna come out and testify and he sat there and listened to Jane, well then he's gonna come in and just say exactly what Jane said. It's gonna mirror her testimony. Exactly. So what do you do as a defense? You say, we want to exclude witnesses. We wanna make sure that when Jane's testifying Brian and doesn't hear anything about it so that we call Brian in and we ask him questions. If his story is a little bit different than Jane's uhoh, we've got a problem. We can start to impeach Brian now, or we can impeach Jane. And we can show that these people are liars and they're lacking in credibility because they're stories don't line up and that's why you exclude them. So now when you have a situation where Jane is actually talking with Brian , and Brian's gonna come forward as a witness, the defense is saying , uhoh foul . Can't do that because we don't know what they actually talked about. Now Brian's communicating that this to us, we, we , the prosecutor, thankfully to their credit said, look, this happened, we gotta alert the court that they're talking about this stuff, but we only know what they actually talked about. Brian was told about interlock in arts, was told about the testimony that took place in court. And he was excluded, foul , foul , foul , foul . Let's jump into the testimony. This is the issue where we start off with , uh, this morning, inner city press is reporting, telling us that they are starting the day with arguments about what was said outside of court. The previous day Maxwell's lawyer manager says, all right , judge, I gotta request about this problem. My request is to find out what the communication was by him, to him. By Jane, before he gets in the stand, he was shown a document that Jane was asked about. So Brian knows what the testimony is. He knows what cause Jane talked about it. Judge Nathan says, well, which document manager says the interlock in school application talked a lot about that one prosecutor. I think this is Mo she stands up and she all right , judge, listen. Jane told him, well, she said that the defense lawyer is front is what she said and manager says, okay, that's fine . But what else did she tell him ? What else was she talking about? Judge Nathan says, well, all right . I guess he shouldn't testify until after lunch until we figure this all out manager says, I don't care about the swear words of the potty language of that mouth. You know of that lady, that's fine. But if she's coaching him or if she's communicating what our strategy is, he's no longer a reliable credible witness. So we gotta throw him out. Then they have a sealed sidebar discussion public doesn't ever get to see it. So inner city press takes a break. We change channels. We go over to Adam class field he's at long crime.com . Maxwell's defense here is now saying we wanna exclude that entire tech testimony. Brian should not be allowed to talk at all. He should just be precluded. He's tainted. Jane ruined this. We don't know what they talked about. He can no longer be reliable gone. Judge. Nathan says, well, you know, I , there are some concerns about this. Like we don't know whether any coaching took place and I'll consider it. I'm actually gonna consider this request to exclude it. Jane should have known better government. You should probably communicated this to her. So Brian , well , I'm gonna consider about may . Brian might go . We'll see. Prosecutor comes back, says, look, Brian informed the government about the convo with Jane, right? Brian told us, so Brian is acting above board here. He's not doing anything nefarious. He called us. He said, listen, we had this conversation. He says, he insists. In fact that we did not go into the details of any of this stuff. Jane told him that he should know the defense attorney is a front, that's it? But the details, the specifics. Well, you know, we don't really, we didn't get into that. And , and since Brian called us, we can trust him. We don't need to exclude him. He's being honest. Nathan says, okay, the first task now, then fi right , listen, enough of this. The first time , the first task is for the government. You have to fully inquire. I want you to go find out what Brian learned from Jane or anyone else. Go dig into that. You're witness, go talk to him. What did he learn? Class field is reporting saying that, you know, the issue here is less that the expletive that was being used, it's the fact that the sequester, the sequestration order that was our already in place is now being violated. There's an order that shields witnesses from each other's testimony so that they can't corroborate their stories so that you can impeach them. You can say a doesn't match B over here. So we'll see what the judge does about that. We didn't have an opportunity to talk to Brian today. We'll see if he's able to be called tomorrow. And our next witness in the Glenn Maxwell case is FBI agent. This is what the scene looked like. The woman's name is Kimberly Meder , M E D E R. Looking at a photograph here of Glenn Maxwell in court. Apparently look looking at a photo of herself, embracing Jeffrey Epstein. We have a little bit of a interesting look on the FBI. Agent's face. Miss Metter is testifying in court today. Here's how that sounded. She's back on the stand. And remember yesterday, she was the person who talked up about the New York Epstein residence . Remember we pivoted, we , we just talked about Florida. Now we're talking about New York, entirely different set of police officers, different time. This is now in 2019. So we're fast forwarding from the nineties. Here's where we pick up. She said they raided this office back in 2019 FBI. She was testifying yesterday. And so we start right back up with her. She picks up with these photographs and remember what happened with the Palm beach raid in Palm beach? They were you using the police to say, I walk , I walked around and I took a bunch of pictures. I recorded a bunch of videos. I was gathering evidence. I did this. This is what I do in all my investigations, blah, blah, blah. Then they got those photographs recognized this. Yes. Recognize that. Yes. Recognize that one. Got it. All of those E photographs are, then it admitted as exhibits. We showed several of those previously. So she's pick back up . She took all these photographs or was somebody there identifies multiple photographs of Epstein and Maxwell kind of like what we're looking at here. Yep . That's another one. That's another one. Photos are being identified from a CD that the FBI agent reviewed from an investigation. We see two photographs here . We're gonna take a closer look at those here in a minute yesterday, the testimony ended with a number of CDs being found during that raid. And they found a bunch of just horrendous stuff in his property. Right? Look at these, all these CDs. We'll take a look at it. So a recap, we're now walking through Epstein's New York property. We walk in the front door, this is what it looks like. And we immediately see some redactions looks a little bit different than his Palm beach residence . We saw a lot of pastels. This is of course fast forwarded to the night to 2019 . So a little bit of a different era, but we see a very clear redacted photo right here, right in the middle of everything. So it , it's hard to believe that is something of a , of a provocative nature, probably a famous person or somebody that he's standing there with, who knows we have exhibit nine . One one is what is, this is labeled interesting photo painting of some sort of a deformed figure that has maybe another face coming out of the top left of his face. Strange. Otherwise, you know, not , not any decor that really stands out in my mind. We also then move around and we got some other interesting things happening here. So if you walk around the stairwell, you now walk up this very nice, beautiful sort of robust staircase, got some interest sculptures here, sort of facial , uh , masks or faces that are being balanced on top of these cones. And then we got a little chess board with a , a seating area where people can play chess. I suppose we also, then as we're walking around the property could take a look at some of these photographs. Here is an example of one of those photographs that we sort of might resemble what the FBI agent was testifying to previously. We see Epstein and Maxwell here in this embrace kissing one another. And the tour around the property continues. We get to another bookshelf and here is an interesting image. The New York post caught this one says details of the bookshelf in Epstein's home, show his face on a massage, figurine his face on a massage figurine. It's hard to make that out. This photograph is very pixelated. Don't really know what that is, but there's somebody who looks like they're lying on a I , a massage table or a chiropractor table, or some sort of a ceremony of sacrifice. There's some sort of a tablet or written document laying down here on the front of this figurine. Bizarre . Then we start getting into some of the weird stuff. Now, all this, these are just photographs. Your imagination can fill into gaps, but these, this is where it starts to get a little bit interesting. So we take a look at the bathroom. Now we turn the corner and here we see some interesting things that are being , uh , laid out on the floor. We've got a couple of different boxes, sort of look like different safes with different keys. A lot of these look like they're sort of , uh , covered in a felt or something like that. This looks like it's a big safe. And , uh , we don't know exactly what's in it. I'm sure they talked a lot about it. If you look in the mirror, you can see that this safe is actually open or it's a big case. Looks like a safe, the , it is open. So I can't see if there's a, you know , lock on the front of it, but it's a box that can , it's a container of some variety. We see sort of a dusty , uh, countertop looks, looks kind of dusty to me, the regular toiletry, nothing stands out about that, but a lot of different items, a lot of different, you know, little, little weird things that the government just throws out, go through it. And if you're gonna stash a bunch of, you know, illegal things, you might put 'em in stuff that looks like that. Let's just leave it at that. And so as you continue around Jeffrey Epstein's New York mansion, you then turn a corner. This is where you see some , uh, bad energy coming out of this room. This is the massage room. It's actually a massage table. We have a number of different exhibits that are labeled in the back. We've got seven and eight little different evidence markers there identifying some lotions or maybe some alcohol or something of interest that the government thought was appropriate to mark the investigators. You can also see that we have a big redaction on this wall. Don't know what that is. Remember in this, we talked a lot about certain photographs and artwork being very provocative, you know, being, you know, overtly sexual in nature and being so provocative that if you saw it, you would just kind of say, all right , that guy , you know, basically everybody's guilty. It's so offensive. It's so it's so provocative that you just that's, it don't even need to hear anything else. Got it made up my mind. Anybody who was even in that zip code is guilty of whatever. So the government is now, you know , they want , they wanna show the jurors that the defense is saying, absolutely not has nothing to do with Golin Maxwell. It's too prejudicial. It's not probative enough. And as you bounce around the room, you're gonna see those same photographs are all over the place. So we actually looks like have some oils, lotions and massages and all sorts of stuff over there. We got some glasses and we have a photo or something hanging from two chains up here off of the ceiling. And the whole thing is redacted. Nothing. There blanked out another photograph here near the entry or this doorway redacted other redaction, and yet another redaction. So very, very curious as to what those things are. Now, the government is still scoring some points on these things, okay? Because these are exhibits that are being marked and submitted. So the jurors are asking the same questions that you and I are asking ourselves. The heck is going on over here. What are all these photographs showing? This is ridiculous. If this is just a , you know, a juror sitting there going, if I had a massage room and I wasn't doing anything nefarious in there, and I wasn't an international global trafficker, then I might just have some regular artwork on there. And if I, I was under investigation for a crime and somebody came and took a bunch of photographs there, what would they see? Oh, they'd see the R and R law group. Oh, they'd see a , uh , a picture of some mountains over there. Oh, they'd go in there. And they'd see a picture of a , whatever I've got in my office. A lot of different things, nothing needs to be redacted at all. So in a case where you're talking about a person like Maxwell and a person like Epstein, and you've got hints that some of this stuff was going on and maybe the prosecution is dabbling a little bit. And planting that seed that these people are like, you know, borderline Satanists, the people who are basically, you know, the worst, most evil people in the world, what might you imagine? Their massage room looks like per only like this with a bunch of stuff on the wall that you can't see, cuz it's so offensive. I'm gonna guess that these are not famous. People hanging off the walls. We make our way around. We have another photograph of this. You can see a whole different angle. We have , uh , a big, big photograph hanging off the wall, completely blanked out. And it's definitely a massage room. Isn't it. We can see a bunch of oils on this big casing , uh, towels. We've got a lot of different things happening here , uh , as well as the surround sound system. So, all right , so that, it's the massage room . Now. That's just what you can imagine in your mind from seeing the room now, Epstein presumably recorded a bunch of this stuff we don't know, but here is another area of the house. This is a closet. It looks like they're taking a picture of the upper portion of sort of the shelf within the closet. And there are just binders, all redacted labeled, but all redacted don't know what's in them, but you've got a lot of files there. And these were also photographs. We've got Selena AV shoot two . We've got ele two AV photos and just CDs and Staes and Staes of this stuff. We can see, this is government exhibit 9, 26. And the FBI is just rounding all this stuff up, gobbling it up. And we have Kimberly Metter , the FBI agent who's walking us through this. All of these exhibits then are reviewed, discussed, submitted jurors are gonna be able to take a look at 'em Adam class field talks about the cross examination . Now, Laura, Meger called a front earlier this morning. She's gonna be leading it. Cross examination . Kimberly me , the FBI agent says we got thousands of images. We don't know if there were tens of thousands, but it was definitely in the thousands. She says manager asks , all right . In one set, there were more than 20,000 of them . Weren't there is that right? Long pause. Kimberly has to look through the records and doesn't see the prompted where to look and then eventually says, yeah, yeah, there were 20,000 in that one batch. Okay. Do you know whether the photos were altered? You don't know, right? They could have been altered. You have no idea. Do you Meder says that's right. That's correct. That's the end of FBI agent Kimberly met Kimberly met her then is gonna be able to connect us to another part of the investigation. Of course she did the survey. She went around, took photographs. We got to see Epstein's disgusting massage room and the rest of his , uh , you know, artwork. And she found all of those CDs. But if you have, you know, CDs, you know, those can only holds so much data. And so if you're really gonna do it right, you need some hard drives if you're gonna be, you know, Epstein's level. And so that's what he got. So apparently there were all these hard drives that they found data. So if you think the CDs wanna make you vomit, he's got hard drives boxes of hard drives, cuz he just ran outta space. You know, burning CDs is a real pain in the but so you get some hard drives and you fill those puppies up. And so you need somebody to analyze those don't you . And so we've got this guy. This is FBI. No, this is yes. This guy works for the FBI. He is Steven Flatley. He's an FBI agent. And he did some of the forensic analysis on these hard drives and a lot of the data that came out. And so we're gonna hear what he has to say. He's in court. You can see this sketch comes from , uh , sketch artist who is , uh , able to draw his facial features. He works for the government so we can see a little about what he looks like. But now he is in this sketch talking about what he found on one of the hard drives, found a photograph or found an ad essentially that was a wanted ad for massage therapists. As I put this ad together or , or I reviewed this ad that Maxwell put together, we're gonna get into the testimony. So here, how it started inner city brief. Again, we wrap up with the prior witness, Steven Flatley over with the FBI. He's a digital forensic examiner inner city press doing a great job reporting from their boots on the ground. And this guy, Steven Flatley is also a Quanto instructor. So Maureen Comey's back out daughter of James Comey and says, all right , me , what do we have here? He says , this is a hard drive. I examined in the Epstein case. And what is the registered organization for this hard drive? He says, Hm . Comes from uh , G max . Hm . Interesting. G max. Hm . Might be short for go max. Well, I don't know. Could be a coincidence. I don't know . Prosecutor Comey says, how about this email? Okay . Well this email that's from GMAX one mindspring.com . <laugh> also could be a coincidence. I don't know who knows. She says , uh , I need to know what list John is using no water in the black Mercedes. Uh , no pool deck is filthy Glen Maxwell sending an email it's from G max one at mind , spring.com . Very upset. The pool deck is disgusting. Email comes from G max , one from a hard drive called G max , but could, could be could Belin Maxwell or that just could be what Jeffrey Epstein himself . You know , I don't know . We have more testimony. Flatly tells us about that. Email GMAX says the massage creams in Epstein's bathroom were a mess. And remember, this is lady Galin . She's you know, she's the lady of the house. Juan Alessi was not, you know, not real keen on her. And so the massage creams are upset. Nobody's happy about that. Prosecutors then talk about this specifically the massage creams. Oh, they're a mess. So they offer exhibit four 18. So those little massage creams that are just massage creams, not really they're using that testimony to get in an exhibit exhibit four 18 it's underseed don't know what type of massage creams they're really you know, talking about, but enough to make an exhibit out of it. We have prosecutor PANCE . Now we change gears unless he was mistaken, but we have a , a government prosecutor says, how about this document? Well , GMAX sent it again. This one was dated on September 7th, 2002 massage lotion products, huh? Massage lotion products. Okay. Now Flatley's reading notes about go written by GMAX. So it looks, like's writing notes about herself, maybe including Jeffrey Andin really compliment each other. They are great partners. Also they are boyfriend and girlfriend. Unlike what some may think interesting on the hard drive obtained from one of Maxwell's properties. There's a note written by somebody called GMAX about and Jeffrey they're great friends, actually they're boyfriend and girlfriend. They compliment each other very well. They're great partners and they're they are in fact boyfriend and girlfriend, us prosecutors says, thank you no further questions. They are great partners. Boom. See that they are great partners. They really compliment each other. They are boyfriend and girlfriend. Unlike what some may think. 1, 2, 3, these are ying and yang. These are people that are working in cahoots. These are two peas in a pod . These are partners. These are friends. These are boyfriend and girlfriends. This is the , not a situation where Maxwell is this dams in distress. Woe was me, victim and Jeffrey Epstein is, you know, is the , the monster of the century. And poor is just, you know, long , further ride. She has no idea what's happening. She can't escape his wretchedness. No, not at all their partners, their boyfriend and girlfriend. They really Compli many each other. And who's writing it. GMAX is she's writing it about herself is what they're implying back in 2002 , she's talking about all this stuff, all their activities in the nineties, we compliment each other. We're friends, we're boyfriend and girlfriend. We've been doing this whole thing in cahoots the whole time GMAX wrote it. Herself. Prosecutor PRA no further questions. Boom, mic drop turns around and leaves. We get a little bit more color here from Adam class field talking a little bit more about another email. There's one dated May 25th from 2001 GMAX, whoever that is, she grouses in the missive. I need to do what if any list John is using. And he needs to understand that he is truly doing an awful job. So that same email complaining about everything. Massage creams were a mess. G max file 2002. He says this one G max entered this note into evidence. Jeffrey and Galin have been together , uh , for a couple, for the last 11 years. They are contrary to what many people think rarely apart. I almost always see them together. Hmm . The , the GMAX user, the file created by GMAX says is highly intelligent and great company with a ready smile and an infectious laugh who always puts one's set in context, ease the file created by GMAX continues. So what's going on here? We have all these interesting files on Goins . Oh , presumably Goins . We don't know that it's actually hers, but the username is GMAX. And her email is [email protected] . So it might be her or it could be somebody else who knows. And she's really, really on this thing where she's actually talking about herself almost in the third person. Isn't that weird. It made me think of maybe one of those exercises where you write about yourself from the third person, or you write about yourself in a way that you want you self-author your future. Write it down. It becomes a reality. I'm gonna be a successful actor. Write your down your affirm . I do affirmations. Write down your affirmations all the time. Maybe she's doing that. Glen's highly intelligent and great company with a ready smile and an infectious laugh. Right? Identifying what her characteristics are so that she can aspire to be those maybe, or maybe it's somebody else writing it. I don't know . Somebody's actually writing a piece or maybe she's writing an article for herself or writing a piece for something, you know, she's writing this she's she's gonna email this and send this to somebody else. Oh , uh , uh , Hey , uh , go , can you just write us a little thing about you and Jeffrey ? Like tell us how you guys are , uh , write a bio for us could be that. And so she wrote this about herself. It's on the document now, Laura Meger comes out cross examines. All right . Steven Flatley. So you got these hard drives. There's a notes file on that. It's from somebody called GMAX and you copied these files like multiple times. Do you, if anything was changed in the course of copying all these files, you don't know that. Do you, whether anything was changed? He says, I suppose I don't. No . And could you find out if GMAX was in the same place as the computer, in other words, were they connected or can somebody can a hard driver cord something from somebody who's not physically present ? Of course. And so class field then simplifies it for us. A little bit, says the defense is establishing. The documents were written on a desktop and therefore could not be geo located . So questions about where this is coming from documents aren't even reliable there. Steven is what the defense is arguing now. Interesting little tidbit from Mr. Steven Flatley , FBI agent, he was saying Glenn's name wrong. Here's how he was saying it. He was treating the wrong letter of Glenn as silent. He was pronouncing it J a uh , J a , which is a new one. Oh my God. I mean, it was J lane last time, but now it's J a now Adam class field . For those of you knuckleheads out there who keep saying, it's not, it is Galin . Look at it right here. It's Gaylin per Adam class field right there . And he's a blue check mark on Twitter. Okay. So it's official now they're at mid-morning recess on the day and that's all there is to it. That's the end of this discussion about this on , okay. We're done GE Lynn blue check mark on Twitter. All right . Let's get back to business now. All right . So they have a morning break, mid morning recess that was from class field . And then they come back out. They have their , uh, you know , uh , potty break. They come back out and it's kind of over right after that. So we've got, there's a whimper and a bang. We've got Stephen Flatley, according to inner city press just kind of , uh , putters out members of the jury. They take their break. And so that is it for that segment. Now we have one final witness of the day, Glen Maxwell, trial day seven. We hear from our very second victim. The next victim here is gonna take up the rest of the afternoon and probably a big portion of the morning in this trial. And here is what it looked like from within the court. Maxwell listens as Caroline answers questions from prosecutor, Maureen Comey . This took place December 7th, photograph sketch over from Reuters. And so we can see, as we've been talking about the sketch artist , not allowed to draw people's facial or their facial features. And so we don't get any of that here. Here's another photograph. This is where Maureen Comey is now standing up and actually asking her questions. Once again, the facial features are obscured, but you can see probably another, you know, attractive woman. The type that we have seen previously, Maureen Comey is doing the direct exam here is what it sounds like. Carolyn , thanks for coming here today. I'll start easily here. Um , you know, how far did you go in school? Seventh grade. My mother was an alcoholic and I got introduced to Epstein to give him massage. I said, okay. Wow. Seventh grade. How old were you when you had that massage with Epstein? I was 14 years old. Minor . We're gonna dive into that. Prosecutor says, let's talk about the first time you met Maxwell , uh , who greeted you? Well, Maxwell did. And what did she look like? Well, she was an older lady. She had an English accent. I couldn't pronounce her first name correctly. So I called her Maxwell. It's all right , Caroline. Neither can anybody else. We have a massage $300 is what she's paid, Virginia Guffy also SU Epstein also got paid. We can see what's happening here. Each one of these is a little bit of a pod we're walking through chronologically. The timeline of what is happening with Caroline class field gives us a little bit more color. Caroline backs up a little bit, describes a relationship with somebody named Sean . When she met Sean , we don't know who he is. This could be a pseudonym. She tells Sean I'm 17 years old. Turns out she's actually 14. She was at her birthday party through Sean , Carolyn meets Virginia. So we have that connection. Then she's introduced to Epstein. 14 is when the , that happens, same type of testimony here. She had an accent shoulder length, black hair. Couldn't pronounce her first name. And when this all went down, how did it go? Well, it started the massage started with Maxwell taking off her clothes and left on hers. But Maxwell took hers off after 45 minutes of massaging his back up during this massage Epstein then turns over Epstein and Virginia Guffy start having intercourse. She says that she and Virginia were both paid. Carolyn got 300 . So that massage $300. And she did it hundreds of times. She says, went to his house more than 100 times, two to three times a week between the ages of 14 and 18 hundreds of times. Her voice as this testimony is unfolding sounds. It's emotional prosecutor. Comey says, okay, Carolyn , why did you go there? Why did you keep going there a hundred times over and over and over again? Why , why? She has to explain this? Because the , the jurors are gonna be asking themselves that same question a hundred times, if it's so bad, why did you keep going back three times a week between the ages of 14 and 18 for four years explaining why I was young. $300 was a lot of money to me. Okay. Inner city press says, right ? So Maxwell would call you regularly. Then if you went over there hundreds of times, what would Maxwell ask when she called? Well , she just wanted to know if I'd be available. When they flew in you flying all over the place, make sure I'm here. They asked me to travel overseas. And I said there was no way that my mother would say that that was okay. You told Maxwell that you're 14. Yeah. I told her I was 14. Back to that massage Maxwell came in, starts feeling her up, says you got a great body. Maxwell starts. The entire incident wants you to meet Epstein and his friends. She said I had a great body and Carolyn is about to break down and cry on the stand talks back , uh , back again about that massage room. When you uncle who , who would come into that room, Mr. Epstein would first, I would massage him. He would ask about my upbringing, small talk before assault. Would Ms . Maxwell ever pay you? Yeah, she handed me three, $100 . Bills. Maxwell told her that Jeffrey wanted his address. He got sent , uh , she got sent lingerie and concert tickets and a book even called massage for dummies. So Carolyn is asked by the prosecutor. Okay. So this was a horrendous situation for you. Did you bring other friends over to the house? Uh, yeah, I did. I brought Amanda Laslow over one year older than me, which is interesting that they named that person don't know . Don't think that's a pseudonym, but that person must have been 15 at the time, brought her over. And so the, the , the obvious question , if you're the defense attorney or the , the point that you're making is if you were so abused why were you bringing other people back over there? Why'd you do a hundred times? Well , cause I was 14 and you were 15 and you were 16 and you were 17 and you were 18 and you kept doing it. So that's the point that they're gonna make. And you're gonna see, you know, how that settles with the jurors class field says, Carolyn said that she saw Maxwell when she entered the kitchen, she'd come in and she'd just let me know that Mr. Epstein would be right back that he was out on a jug. <affirmative> Carolyn says that she told Maxwell her mother was an alcoholic and that she was molested. Carolyn says, I , I told, I remember telling her that I'd been raped and molested by my grandfather when I was four years old, four years old prosecutors having this conversation. When you invited, when you were invited to go to the island, Carolyn says that she told Maxwell that she was too young and that there's no way in hell. She'd be allowed to go there. No, she made it. She went there. Question. Did Maxwell touch, touch you? Yes. Where on my chest, Carolyn continues. She brought three friends to Epstein's house. And what did you end up doing with all that money? You went over there, you got paid $300, right? And you had to do that multiple times , uh , a week. Right? And you did it a hundred times. Didn't you? What did you do with all that money? So Carolyn is saying, as she breaks down into tears on the stand, I was buying drugs. Uhoh we've got a drug addict who was abused when she was four years old. Carolyn says that she had a son whose father's first name. She says in courts on March 12th, 2004. Huh? And after that date, she returned to Epstein's house because she needed the money. She stopped going because she realized she became too old. How old were you when you became too old? 18 years old became legal. Boom. She's too old stops going over. There has a son in the meantime, but that doesn't stop her from going back and having massages. Now she's a single mother. Now she needs money. Got it. Testimony continues. Eventually it turns out Carolyn is arrested. Why drug use? Hmm . I handed the officer of the drugs. And why did you do that? Uh, because I was an idiot. She laughs yeah. Typically not a good move. She agrees. She was later arrested. She was in possession of stolen property. Carolyn says she went to therapy. Following those incidents. She says she later worked for an escort service and even became a stripper. She sometimes had sex with men for money. She said , and Adam class field is noting. This sounds pretty bad. This doesn't sound good. He notes . This is still the government's direct examination. They're getting all the bad stuff out. We call this drawing the sting. They know that the defense is gonna come out and bring up all these issues. So they gotta get it out of the way here on the direct exam, drug addict, history of sexual abuse worked as an escort, became a stripper arrested criminal history therapy. This girl's a mess is what the defense is gonna say. And so the prosecution has to get it out of the way. As she's testifying here is what a sketch artist was showing on the massage table . Showing , uh , belonging to Epstein is being shown during the trial of Maxwell. We've already seen a lot of that. That was the sketch of the photograph that basically we showed , uh , earlier on in these exhibits, Maxwell is now the subject of this direct exam. We that one here, there was also two people that Carolyn brought in two people named Taum and Julie apparently Epstein asked Carolyn to bring younger people. I said, I don't really hang out with younger people, but there were some people I could ask. When I brought them, I got paid 600 bucks. She got paid 300. Oh, you see there's a little hierarchy working itself out here. If you bring me somebody, you get more than , if you just do the massage yourself, what did they do? Well, they did, you know, all sorts of , uh , intercourse, every which way. What did you do with the money they paid you? She said I was buying drugs. She sobbing her eyes out. The prosecutor says, you gotta say it into the microphone. Say it again. Witnesses sobbing says into the microphone, I was buying drugs. We have a major event. She has a baby. She goes back to Epstein's house. I needed the money and I realized I was too old. Prosecutor says , uh , didn't you later pawn an Xbox wasn't yours. Yeah, I did. I went to jail for that one. I did drug treatment. I did therapy. And now I take methadone and Xanax. So I'm actually , uh , basically detoxing off of drugs as we speak I'm on methadone and Xanax because I am withdrawing. So we have a, a look and I say this to somebody who is very familiar with the 12 step program because I live, it actually have my men's group today in 27 minutes to talk about it, right? Drug treatment, and therapy, congratulations to her for that recovery. But the defense is gonna beat this over her head with a mallet, as we're going to see, we're gonna jump into this. Uh , we have Carolyn now I'm constantly afraid of my children being trafficked is what she tells the prosecutor. And are you in touch with the father of your child here, Sam? Well, not since the Xbox paw shop thing. And have you worked for an escort service and uh , slept with other men for money? Yeah, sometimes I do. Now what Maxwell do to you anyways? Well, she took pictures of me nude, you know, all this stuff with the Epstein stuff and prosecutor says and who decided who you would Sue? Maxwell's a lawyer scream. Objection. Don't answer that. When I say sustained, judge Nathan is telling Caroline hold off on this stuff. So then we get to cross examination . We bring out Jeff Paka . Remember the G is silent. Like lasagna, Paka comes out and he says, all right , Caroline. So Sean was a friend of Virginia Robert's boyfriend, Tony. Right. And you all smoked weed together and you all drank alcohol didn't you? Caroline says, well, we didn't drink any alcohol maybe. Yeah. But not so much. The alcohol and Paka says to , uh , Carolyn . And it was Virginia Roberts that told you that you could make $300 for these massages? No, no, it wasn't. It wasn't Virginia Paka says, okay. So it wasn't her. All right . So when Roberts approached you about making $500, then Maxwell wasn't there, right? Uh , it was me and Virginia and Maxwell was not involved in that conversation though. Right? Right. Maxwell's not involved at all. Roberts approached Carolyn not Maxwell Maxwell had nothing to do with it. So . All right . So you went over to Epstein's. He paid you all the money. He did all that stuff, but Roberts was the one who recruited her, not Maxwell is what paid EUCA is trying to argue here. We get this photograph of now she's reaching over and talking to somebody, you don't know who this is. Looks like it's actually across the bar, which means, well , it's kind of a , you know, it might be kind of a no-no on that one. If you're a criminal defendant, you don't really get to reach across the bar and talk to your family. Now, if this is her attorney, if this is Bobby stern , Heim , who has that shorter white hair than, and glasses , maybe that's her attorney. That would be okay. But Bobby really shouldn't be sitting behind the bar. Uh , this is across the bar, you know? So that might be her brother. And if Golin is talking to her brother, uhoh not supposed to be doing that. And judges will really flip out about that. If you have a defendant, who's talking to somebody of , uh , you know, when they're supposed to be talking to them, not happy. So we get into cross examination . Jeff Paka , as we talked about, we see a little bit of a mismatch. Now, now ordinarily the pattern in this trial has been same gender cross examinations for victims. So we remembered that when we had our first victim Jane, that Laura Menninger did the cross-exam nation . We remembered that yesterday when we had Kate, I think it was Bobby stern , Heim who did the cross examination on that one. But today we got Jeff Paka . He's doing the cross exam , obviously he's male and Caroline is a female. And this sounds like it is just a brutal cross examination . It goes on very long. They break for lunch now. And uh, where do we get here? Yeah. So they, they pick up right here. Paka comes out and we notice that Maxwell's not involved in the conversation and Maxwell his , uh , her lawyer Paka actually says the last name of the witness. So he probably talked about, he probably said something like , uh, okay, so miss , you know, whatever her last name is , uh, you a miss Caroline, whatever, and said that name. And it came out, you know , popped up in court and nobody said anything. So you see this, the judge is now actually saying , uh , or , or inner city press is telling us nobody caught it. Comey . Didn't say anything. Court didn't say anything. So we get sort of that, that violation happens. We go to a break, they have have their lunch. They come back picking back up with this line of questioning. Paka says, okay, look at the notes that the FBI took Carolyn , when you went and you sat down and you reported all this stuff, you talked to the FBI, didn't you? Yeah. And they wrote down some stuff in their notes, something about a lady with short black hair in a , you know, an quote , an unknown accent. You said it was an unknown accent and they didn't cut you off. Did they? When they were asking you like they, they didn't hurry you along. No, they didn't. So why did you say it was an unknown accent? She says that was a bad day for me. I wasn't really expecting the FBI to come to my home. Okay. So that's fine. But I understand you're nervous, but you knew what a British accent was. Right. You know what a British accent sounds like, but when the FBI asked you about it, you said it was just an unknown accent. Didn't you? Carolyn says , uh , the day that you're talking about and Paka says , uh , judge, I'd ask the court to make her answer that. Okay . She's about to spin off into something. I'm asking the court to answer, make her answer to that. Presumably she does Paka continues and says, all right , Caroline. So for the second visit then to Epstein's house, when you were there, you sat in the kitchen and you spoke then , uh , with the chef at that time, didn't you? Carolyn says, I don't remember. I don't know if it was the second visit or after that Paka says, oh, you don't remember interesting. Uh , okay, well let's do this. Go ahead and show the witness what she said in 2007 , show it up on the screen. And he is gonna impeach her with this stuff. I don't remember. Do you remember what the theme of the defense in is in this case? Money manipulate and memory . So every time that the defense can score one of these points, the, I don't remember point perfect. Ding , check that box got one. Perfect scored it. I don't remember if it was after the second visit or afterwards. Perfect. Okay . Well, I'm gonna , I , I remember I'm gonna show you because we have documents from that in 2007, Carolyn says, well, the FBI didn't ask me about Maxwell pale . EUCA says, okay. So are you saying the FBI , uh , limited what you could say? Well, they didn't ask me about Maxwell. Okay. But did the FBI limit you from talking about Maxwell? Uh, well , uh , uh , obviously, no, they didn't, but they didn't ask me about it. Okay. But you voluntarily told the FBI, I mean, you , when , when they were interviewing you, you , you talked freely about Sarah didn't you and you talked freely about the incubus tickets from Epstein, didn't you? Yes. Yes I did. And you talked about this and you talked about that, didn't you . And when you were talking with the FBI in 2007 , you detailed all the problems you had in the world, but you didn't talk about Maxwell. Well, the FBI didn't ask me about Maxwell, but they didn't tell you that you couldn't talk about her . Did you, did they, and you talked about everything else under the sun, except Maxwell. Very interesting. If Maxwell was such a big problem then, and this wasn't about Epstein, why didn't you bring her up? Pay a Lea continues. And then after that you move from Florida to Georgia, right? She says, yes, they change gears. All right . Well, now I wanna talk about these lawsuits that you filed. Carolyn says, well, what does that have to do with me? Moving to Georgia. Witness is getting a little bit testy over here, Caroline, you are not the attorney here. You don't get to ask the questions and that's what Paka is gonna do. Asks her again and again, and, and again about the FBI 3 0 2 S as soon as she snaps, he cracked her. As soon as she snaps, he's just gonna have fun with it. And the judge declares an afternoon break. He asks her again and again about FBI 3 0 2 S in the lawsuit, paragraphs there's multiple objections. It sounds like they have a break outside the presence of the jury and they argue into it. Judge sends the jury out for a recess. Paka says, all right , listen, judge, I'm gonna impeach this witness by omission. She filed a civil complaint. She filed a lawsuit here pointing to paragraphs of Carolyn's civil complaint about Sarah ke. Now he's saying that the government is trying to play down Kell's role and play up Maxwell's we had all of those other co-conspirators. We talked about this in the mind map , which is now [email protected] for a link. If you want to take a look at it, Sarah ke actually we can take a quick look at that. I think we've got some time on it. Let's take a look at the mind map real quickly, and we can take a look at the Epstein non prosecution agreement. So you see here, this is Sarah ke. She was specifically detailed in this non prosecution agreement. The language is right here, Sarah ke . And so as part of the 2007 deal, she specifically named they can't, Epstein's a problem, but he's now gonna be covered basically by this plea agreement. It's also gonna cover all of these other people who were written in here. Maxwell is saying that should also be covered under there as a named co-conspirator. But the court found that she wasn't. And so now, as we have Caroline testifying, the prosecution is saying, or the defense is saying, they're trying to minimize Sarah Kellen's role and, and reemphasize Maxwell. And so it continues. The civil complaint is doing the opposite. The civil complaint is saying that ke was the person who did all of it, not Maxwell. So Paka wants to dig into that. We have a conclusion of the afternoon recess, Paka then turns to Carolyn's history of alcohol and drug abuse. And then this is when it just starts to, I think go poorly for Carolyn Paka refers to the previous testimony. She said this in her prior litigation and , and a prior lawsuit says , um, okay, Carolyn , when you filed this other lawsuit, there's a , there's a line in there. It says question. Did you ever have it intercourse with Epstein answer? No. Carolyn says in a prior lawsuit, Paka pulls up this lawsuit. I'm referring to your testimony in this prior litigation. Did you ever have intercourse with Epstein? Your answer in this lawsuit was no. And Carolyn freaks out jumps in interjects about the exchange jumps right into that. I replied know because I was not a willing participant. He slept with me and I stopped it. Carolyn is saying to everybody that she never slept with him. He slept with her in her prior litigation. Talking about the specific did you have ever have, you know , physical intercourse with Epstein? She said, no. <affirmative> which is obviously not accurate. She's clarifi it's one or the other, isn't it either she had intercourse with him or she didn't in prior litigation. She said, no, that they never had intercourse in this trial. She's saying that yes, they did. She's explained her prior statement as, as this. And do you buy that? I replied. No, because I was not a willing participant. He slept with me and I stopped it. We got two different versions of a story here. Prior litigation didn't have intercourse. Current case did have intercourse. We also have a defense saying <affirmative> drug addict. Somebody's in therapy, criminal record, basically a prostitute escort, somebody with a very, very troubled past somebody who was sexually abused at age of four, all sorts of problems. And in prior litigation says that she never even slept with Epstein. Not what we just heard is it at all? Paka then says, so , uh, when you were going through all that treatment, when you were in and outta rehab, when you were , uh , working on yourself, is it true that you never, once Mac mentioned Maxwell in therapy, never once, correct? She says manipulation. Remember that point from the defense, these women are now being manipulated. They are being manipulated. They were abused by Epstein. They are being manipulated to go after Maxwell is almost completely absent from this woman's testimony. According to pale EUCA doesn't come up in therapy, never mentioned previously, E even in the , in the , in the original litigation that she filed previously, talking about Sarah Kell, being more at fault than Maxwell. Civil complaint says the exact opposite of that. It carries on inner city press was reporting. This says that after pale , ask Carolyn again and again about the FBI 3 0 2 S and the lawsuit paragraphs. We take a break. The entire complaint it's argued by pale Yuca is inconsistent. Maureen Comey is arguing about the lawsuit, trying to keep it out saying that lawsuit was against two defendants. There's no reason they should be let in. Judge. Nathan lets it in. Jury comes back in. PACA says you recall abusing drugs from the age of 13, since you were a 13 year old, you've been basically a drug addict, right? Well, if you call pot drugs, she says, and I guess, and you went to Georgia to detox. Didn't you? Uh , well, no. I went to Georgia to escape traumatic events in my life. Okay. And let's talk about claims of , uh , sleeping with Epstein . It's true that you used cocaine when you were at his house, isn't it? She said, no. What does any of this? And she says, she jumps in now she's starting to crack. She snaps. What does any of this have to do with what I'm here for today? Carolyn says Galin Maxwell fondled me and she broke my soul. UCA says, oh my judge moved to strike that. Now judge, Nathan says, Carolyn , you have to follow my rules. You can't talk at a turn like that jury, please disregard pale . EUCA says, all right . Okay. She's back in line. Now pale EUCA says, okay. And you received these funds from the Epstein compensation fund. Uh , Carolyn J jumps in no amount of money will ever heal. Uh , Paka judge, judge. I se moved to strike judge Nathan again. All right . Jury will disregard. I am now instructing the witness to comply with the rules. Carolyn , you have to comply with these rules. Stop talking outta turn. Paka finishes up now because she's, you know, basically cracked in front of the jury. Paka says you claim you saw a photograph of Ms. Maxwell pregnant, right? Yeah. She was naked and pregnant. That was on multiple , no further questions from Paka . You saw a photograph of Maxwell pregnant, right? Yep . Sure did multiple. No further questions. Maureen Comey comes back out. We've got three minutes. Comey says, did you write your legal complaint? Carolyn says, no, I didn't write document. Yeah. I mean, I filed a lawsuit, but I didn't write it. The , my lawyer read it. And then we do the math. What year was it? When you were 13, they do the math. They get it. And you are here to get, are you here to get money? Carolyn says, no. What she did was wrong. She took young girls pale . You could jumps in object, no further questions from PACU or from combin . We get one quick follow up from PACU , the $446,000 you got in 2009. That was gone though in 2012 . Wasn't it? Uh , I don't know, sir. Carolyn says I have children. I take care of and you can't how you spent almost half a million dollars . You lost all of it. Okay. No further questions. Thank you. That's Jeff UCA then closes that out and that is it for our testimony. Today in day seven, we have one final matter of business from judge Nathan excuses. The jurors says, I'll see you tomorrow, but now the government stands up and says, we're gonna be resting this week. Folks, what the prosecution is gonna be done this week. It's Tuesday. This was our second victim today. It was said that this would be a five to six week trial. This is a big change. Now it's judge Nathan floats a charging conference on Saturday. The 18th might actually have an entirely different court date on a Saturday. Judge, Nathan says I've inquired and we could get Maxwell here on a Saturday. We could open the overflow room. So we'll work on that. Meanwhile, no, listen in no call in line. None of that as the aisle continues to unfold. And so we have a short few minutes to take some questions. If there are any from our friends [email protected] and I saw one or two super chats come in. So we'll be sure we get to those as well. We have cx.com is here, says thank it's been a wild ride so far. Thanks for the great coverage. Remind, use grr at checkout to get 20% off their legal THC products. I'm gonna only indulge that for a little bit longer, but it's, it's very clever. Janet Hunt says treat her the same as all the other criminals. I agree with that. I think that they should all be treated the same, all be treated the same go Lynn as well. And, and we have Mars pan says , uh , no, no question, but a nice donation and super chat . We have former L EEO says, what would be your position? If the five steps of grooming were applied to Maxwell? I think a case could be made that she was Epstein's first victim to good is a very good concept there , former EEO . And I think that the is going to be , um, trying to make that pitch. You know that in other words, she's a victim of Epstein. Has she been examined by a sexual , uh , assault therapist or anything like that? Uh, I don't know. Uh , you know, probably she's got a whole team of people working on her. Sergeant Bob says , uh, I do agree with you Robert. However, she is no better than the protesters still in custody. If Garland does , in fact get involved, the January protesters are also entitled to redress Maxwell's Mo money should not make a difference. PS , sometimes hard boiled eggs, yolk have a green cast. Moldy may not be accurate. That is true. Sergeant Bob. Yeah . They mean they have sort of a little greenish, you know, blue hint to them kiss says just to add a little anecdote to what you said about innocent until guilty. When I used to tutor kids, I would tell them to be careful on how you treat people, because you never know who that person could turn out to be later on this falls along the same lines it does. Right? Because you never know, you know, it could be your son, who's facing a ridiculous assault charge and it's uh , a problem let's see, three girl is here, says, I don't want anybody to be dealing with the stuff that happens in prison. I don't believe there should be any food that's moldy or spoiled. There should be an inspection. If that's the case, her lawyers have been complaining about this all along. How much of this is because she's used to a different standard of living more than complaints that, that , that then that they're giving that every other inmate has. Should she get acquitted? Couldn't she Sue for the inhumane treatment that she has received? Yeah, she could Sue right now really. I mean, she wanted to, from the view of the corrections officer, shackles, her protocol in every prison, doesn't matter what age she is. It's for the safety of the officers and the people around her. So long as it's not medically necessary for her to not have the shackles, she's gonna have the shackles 90 minutes. And shackles happens when there are other things going on in the facility that causes there to be, to delay. These officers are not trying to keep her in shackles their whole world. Their whole world is not revolving around her. It revolves around the whole of the facility. Food is disgusting in prison, regardless of how fresh it is, prison food is downright inhumane. From my point of view, I could not stand seeing the amount of food they were giving as well as the quality of the food. This food is given to every inmate, never gonna be the quality that she was used to before prison. That's from three girlies . Very, very, I think reasonable comment there. Thank you for as details. And I think all of it is very accurate. VI Antica says, did Jane call the lawyer a sh does the lawyer like to try and get around? Things does a lot of things that rhyme with that outnumbered mom says, are the photos blacked out for the jury too ? If so that's gonna look like a thousand times, worse for imagination is always gonna be bigger then reality. Yeah. So yes, I believe that that those redactions that we saw are gonna be with the juror . Uh, but it's hard to tell because we're sort of viewing from afar. Speech is here, says couldn't the brother just have read the Twitter post coverage to find out what his sister was questioned about. Uh, yeah. Could have . Yeah, he could of doesn't seem that there is really any way to prevent one witness, to know what another witness testified to, if it is being reported publicly. Yeah , that's true. Right. That is true. But it's, it's sort of the same charge that you give to the defense or , or to the , to the jurors, right? Yeah. You can go find out about this stuff, but you're sort of using your honor system, your honor code that you're not going to do that. And you're swearing, you know, under penalty of perjury that yep . You know, I'm going to be accommodating of all of that and why renal MD says, why are all the photos red? Did who advocated for that? Uh , probably the defense. Typically the average person doesn't get that level of privacy relatives of those arrested don't have the right to be redacted outta photos when one of the attorneys have to make a motion. Yeah. So the defense did, they didn't want any of that stuff to be shown because they say it's overly prejudicial and it's not probative enough. It doesn't go to the nature of allegations against gal Maxwell. It's just, it's just prejudicial. It's too harmful without really getting to the root of the matter. We also have given what the jury has been allowed to see in here and now sees a bunch of art and photos getting redacted only gonna cause them to speculate that those must be really offensive, offensive. Sometimes what people can imagine is often worse than reality. T Miller is here, says , uh , did I miss something? The FBI agent reviewed a mountain of CDs and hard drives. And the summation was that Epstein and Maxwell were dating. Huh? So that's what we heard there. Uh, T Miller, but you're you're right. There was , there was a , I think there was a , a big portion of today's testimony that was redacted and that we don't get, we didn't get to see much of. And so there's other stuff happening there. I'm sure of it, but that's what we've got. Yeah. They're in a relationship happy couple they're inseparable. Okay. Uh , and so that was from speech. We have just a couple minutes left. If I don't get to these, we'll come back , uh , tomorrow and get those out. Former Eleo said those redacted pictures in the massage room could have been pictures of Hillary Clinton nude on the massage table. And nobody should be forced to see that. I agree with you. Monster one says off topic . What are your thoughts on Metro dread ? Just picked it up a few days ago. Some of the bosses are pretty frustrating. I agree with you on that monster one , there was, there were several, I almost threw my switch out the window. I don't know , four times, five times maybe. And I stopped playing it because the , the last boss is just driving me nuts. I'm gonna have to like take, you know, the whole thing to do to accomplish that one. Kincaid says, all right , evening , Rob . I think you're right about the prosecution going for the evil creep factor. It just, they're also trying to lasso in as much a top of dead horse. How much of the prosecution tactics are about minimalization and upper echelon corners also did Trump forecast some things once thought crazy. The GMAX notes could be explained as her silent screams to get out, blah blah. That's from Kincaid . Yeah. It's there's , there's a, a lot there. Kinkaid . I appreciate you chiming in with that. Jeremy says, Rob excellent analysis of the goin map. Viva gave you a plug earlier, including your fancy, fancy social network map. By the way, as an expert, watching the watcher program, observer and amateur social scientists. I don't like that. Arizona has its own time zone . Well, I don't like that. You guys change yours all the time. I mean, get with the program. What century are we living in here? I don't get to participate in your live show as much. Cause I get busy at work. I do get caught up afterwards. Keep the expert analysis coming. Many of us look forward to hearing your take on the trial. Well , I appreciate being here and spending time with you. Likewise, Jeremy. So I'm glad that you show up and you know, I know that the time zones change, I know it's frustrating, but it's not permanent. Cuz we'll change back. Speech unleash says, do you know if the baby Caroline had, could be Epsteins presuming that she was sleeping with him during that timeframe? Uh, so she said that it wasn't, we have the name of a father somewhere and we had Janet hut says, why would they rest? So it's a good question. They're feeling very good about their case. They're feeling like they got a couple more victims to call. They don't need much else. They , they , they provided four , six weeks, but they don't need it. They got through it quickly. They think they're checking all their boxes. That's a , all they need. And they've been moving along quickly. Like I don't think they wanna bore the jurors to death. They're not doing the Thomas B approach, which is the right move. They're gonna, you know, go in fast, present a lot of the evidence, not waste anybody's time and see what the jurors have to say about it. All right , my friends and that is it for me for the day. I want to thank those of you who participated in the show from our community [email protected] We've got our monthly meetup taking place this Saturday, December 11 , seven to 8:00 PM. If you're a member [email protected] , you'll see a registration form and I'm gonna invite you to come and join in on that. It's going to be the ugly sweater edition. So make sure that you bring one of those and you're locked and loaded and ready to go. Kay sent in a final, super chat , says Epstein and seem to have been running a Sparrow training school. I don't know what that means and I'm afraid to ask. So , uh , that was from Kay and that my friends is it for us. For the date . We're gonna be back here to do it all again tomorrow and I need to be here so that together with your help, we can shine that big, beautiful spotlight of accountability and transparency down upon our system. With the hope of finding justice, have a great night. My friends, I will see you all tomorrow. Bye bye .